#01 - Samantha Truong - From Psychology Major to Senior UI/UX Designer

Jul 28, 2022Dianne Eberhardt

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Dianne: Welcome to the pixelated, perfect podcast. So what's a Pixelated Perfect Podcast? Is all about interviewing designers and learning a little bit about how they got to where they are. Some of the challenges, they faced some of the high points and unexpected moments and just learning a little bit about what's next for them and what they're looking to achieve in their design career. So, everyone, this is Sam, she is a full-time product designer. She is working part-time with the design project helping with a couple of customers Sammy's been with us for about 6 months now.

Sam: I would say so, almost eight months!

Dianne: Time is crazy because she's been an amazing asset to the design team. Sam has been able to work with some of our customers as well as help us build processes and understand how to better set up designers for Success at the design project. So we have enjoyed having you on the podcast and we enjoyed working with you say I'm so let's jump in. I would love to just kind of understand a little bit about your background where you came from what in the design world or anything. If you want to start early wherever you want to start, just kind of telling us a little bit about you.

Sam: I'm from Denver Colorado. In college, I started studying Psychology and Humanities and I took one UX course and fell in love with UX design.

Sam: After college, I jumped into account management for a swag company. I was making t-shirts, and pens for Jack Daniels, Jack, Daniel, and whiskey Liquor. And, you know, I was just always liked envious about the graphic designer on the team who got the mock-up products and like just, you know, like she rated experiences on a physical level, I guess, or she's just doing design at that job. But I also like interning at a startup company at that time, but just realized I just didn't have enough background and structured education to go further into it. So I decided to quit my 95 at that time. My first big girl job enrolled me in Bootcamp. I went to flatiron School boot camp.

Sam: I did that for 6 months, and honestly afterward just landed a job at another startup company. I look at what I learned, I love the friends I've made along the way and yes, I was just been in the startup world for a very, very long time. And what I love so much about startups is the energy that people have and the passion that they bring to their projects and it's a space that I don't see myself leaving for a long time. From there on out. Just been working with clients building my portfolio and that's when I kind of stumbled across TDP on LinkedIn and decided to reach out to Diane and Alex and here I am

Dianne: Love it, love it. I want to kind of dive deeper into some of those places. First of all, this is a call. So you got it, you were studying for psychology, right? That's insane and you said, you took a UX course. What was it about that? UX course, that kind of caught your attention?

Sam: So about the UX course, they were talking a lot about observing users out in the field. So big part of it. Like they taught us about how to do user research and such and doing like, going out into the field and just making observations of how people operate. That's how I did my first project for that class. I was designing an app that allows you to keep track of all the stuff that you have in your refrigerator and then you can go to the grocery store and like buy it I guess. And so I spent a lot of time at the grocery store.

Sam: I'm just kind of watching people use their phone to search up products, and just kind of, honestly following people around the grocery store. So, just to help me build my first concepts, and I don't know, from that point on, I just really loved the idea that your ex is, so based on advocating for the users and making sure that they have a great experience using digital products. And aside from like ideating and my many ideas and then just building prototypes and concepts, I think I just fell in love with the whole thing.

Dianne: I love that pulling around at the grocery store. There's an overlap between like psychology and design and I'm sure you felt that and that probably was also exciting to you like knowing that you were learning and understanding users and How users interact with the grocery store?

Sam: I love learning about the way people think about things.

Dianne: My background is I came from just traditional Graphics. I went to school for graphic design, which doesn't focus on users in the same way and that's kind of like what led me into it getting into the minds of users, understanding how users function and work and how we can find patterns for users. So I think that's super also, I enjoyed that side of it super fascinating.

Dianne: So you got your first job and what was...? So you talked about this graphic designer, he was kind of envious of antique play and design, things all day. So you taking UX course and then it kind of seeing someone and more of a graphic design position. How do you feel the differences between graphic design and product design?

Sam: That is such a great question.

Sam: From my experience, the differences between graphic design and user designer, or product design... well they are very similar, but in different ways, like, graphic design, it's for me. I guess how I think about it is that it's like, you're almost thinking about how to communicate through the users, through these visual pieces. And then product design is almost the same thing. But I guess on a different level where it's like designing an experience for the user. And I think both art and art and graphics and everything like that is all about the experience, right? I think what is interesting though is as I'm in my career and like working through these steps, I find that product design is not all design 100% of the time. A lot of it is you know, a client piece of Base client management. A lot of it is design strategy, and a lot of it is like knowing how to communicate.

Sam: A lot of these skills that I think honestly pick up a lot more of the job than just sitting at a computer and looking at a screen and like putting together these visual elements. It's about taking the visual elements and knowing how to communicate your idea to the stakeholder. So it's a very interesting and rewarding career path.

Dianne: I know, I love that. Before we continue going to your career I want to pause when I'm packed like everything you just said about product designer and being customer-facing and processes and all the other things that come with outside of being just sitting at your computer working on Figma all day, a tell me more about what is your favorite part of product design, user design, but outside of the actual design piece.

Sam: I like getting into it in the same room with other designers and just figuring out how to solve a problem for the user before even touching any Figma tools is like putting a pretty pixels on a screen. I love being able to sit there with other designers even by yourself and being like, "okay... so my user has a very real problem that their experience. What are the many different ways that we can try to make their lives easier?", make this product a little bit better to use. Sitting down, or even sketching ideas, but just, I think of solving problem-solving aspect is what I love the most of it outside. Then sitting down and designing a screen for something like that.

Dianne: You talked about working with the customer sketching brainstorming,

Sam: What is that usually look like? For you, like when you started it and to now like working with the customer and brainstorming and iterating and getting feedback with an actual customer. How is that? Experience pain from things starting to today?

Sam: I think that in my early career... I'm not sure if other designer sees this, but in my early career, I would sketch out my ideas and present them to the stakeholders to get their feedback. And now, as I'm learning, it's more about like, code designing. . Maybe instead of you having an issue idea first, you bring everybody into the room and you guys brainstorm together on how to create these ideas. I think that is a really important skill to learn to, for junior younger designers, is that you know, that's, like involving your stakeholders in.

Sam: the process is how you can get and build a report, so that when you do present your ideas down the road there, like they kind of feel like they have a say and so what your building. I was like, for a long time. I was like, well, you know, I think I'm falling for this to you is like, as a young designer, like, I don't necessarily know the answer to every single problem and coming to terms with that and accepting that like my ideas are may not always be the best ones that start with, but involving other people into your ideas is how you can build a team, camaraderie and you all feel accomplished that you all put in and put into the product.

Dianne: When I get on sales calls for the Design Project we are kind of external resources and the kind of like the line I tell them is like, you guys are the experts in your product and we're the experts and user-centered design. So the only way we're going to get to the best product is by working together and brainstorming together and combining all of our knowledge. So I think that's so true. Can you talk about a specific example of a time when maybe it didn't go well?

Sam: Oh, that's a really good and hard question.

Sam: So I was working with the client at one point in my career and I think like I didn't do enough project scoping at the beginning like maybe I got to like the project free for my client at the beginning and then I took that project read but I did ask him enough question so I designed some initial concept that I presented it to them and then they also didn't communicate what they wanted at the beginning of the projects as well. So we both were kind of operating on like misunderstanding in this alignment. I think there was a lot of, not wasted time, but it was just like we weren't I guess we just weren't seeing eye-to-eye and that sensor. It's like okay, I will, but I'm like, okay, what you mean right? Like this is what we're going for it and then they're like, oh yeah, I will tell you that I just don't like the color orange or something like that. So I think it's important at the very beginning to get a line and talk to your clients and just figure out like to kick it like crystal clear, like ask all your questions at the beginning, make sure you have all the pieces of information that you need and then also to set expectations with your client: this is, you know, this is how the feedback I'm looking for, or maybe these are the things that I need for the project, how do we get to that place? First before moving on and presenting this decide later down the road.

Dianne: I think that it's really easy to get into the middle of a project and blame the customer right? And like, oh, they didn't give you the information I needed. But you know, it's both people's responsibility, right? And I think it's you saying like you recognizing that and you said like it's lost time but it's not last time. It's like you ended up realizing that you both misunderstood each other and taking that time to like, realize I think is important. You know, that happens, this is the real world design, you know, customers things change. And so I think just being really clear and communicating as often as you can and trying to get realigned. It's like you made a mistake. How can you fix it instead of just blaming the customer is not going to get you anywhere? So I think realigning is a super-powerful

Sam: Dianne, I have a question for you. I want it. So, what are your thoughts on the idea that designers are facilitators?

Dianne: I love that question. I would say that is 100% true. Something that I started doing the past few years is doing more facilitations running, more designs friends and what I realize there's a lot that I learned from running, those design Sprint in facilitating that have been huge, have impacted how I go about communicating with customers. So I think that is up to the designer to facilitate to be the one to say, hey, this is the type of feedback I'm looking for, or what you're proposing doesn't make sense because of this or that. Why don't we brainstorm together? So I think facilitating and holding the customer's hands to get them to where everyone needs to be is huge and I think for designers that want to grow and become the best designers. I think you have to have those facilitation skills unless you want to focus on something really specific like animations or something 3D, then you can kind of live in your world and that's fine. But yeah I think if you want to let grow as a designer you have to be able to facilitate.

Dianne: Thank you for asking that question. I think that's so important and I know that something like you've been working on this past year too and you've been like thinking about how you can better communicate to your customers. So what do you think about that? I'll ask you that question.

Sam: I like what you said about holding the stakeholder's hand and guiding them through the process. It's like so much of design, we have to advocate for the users, we have to teach our stakeholders. What UX design. I feel like a part of her job is constantly fighting others. You know, that showing them that UX is important. And that we should invest in part design and we should invest in good user experiences and stuff like that user research design as facilitators. That's an interesting thought because it's almost as if like us as designers, at least in my experience is that we bring all the stakeholders into a room and try to get them to have the conversations themselves to see what kind of ideas, spur-of-the-moment and also trying to help facilitate those kinds of conversations at least consulting agency roll like sometimes in the room is best, the superpower is empathy and listening and so if we can get other people to share their ideas to us and that's just tools that we have to build a better experience

Dianne: You have to understand your role as a designer and how impactful it is as a designer, and it's way more than just putting moving pixels on a canvas. And I think a lot of a lot of Junior designers even mid-level don't see that value in that passion. And I think like we do have the superpowers to facilitate and to get the information we need.

Dianne: And another thing that just popped in my head: a lot of times customers think that they can't give us all the information that they've done so far because they don't want us to be guided in a certain way or they don't want to ask you or opinions. And so they hold back. And so the designer is going through all these inspo processes and they haven't landed on the exact place the customer wanted them to land. And so that's a lot, I would consider that waste of time and so if the customer comes to us and gives us everything, that is the ideal starting place is like your customer is done so much research already and if they can give you that and you can leverage that to get to the next level. So impactful so maybe like what do you think about when customers hold back or like, how is that been a situation that you've dealt with in the past?

Sam: I was thinking, when you were saying asking a question, I was thinking like, oh my God, I just please give me all the information!. I agree with you because it's like when customers decide not to share it's like we don't get the bigger picture of how the product will, you know, start or will even operate. So much about the user experience that goes beyond just the screen. User experience starts at the initial touchpoint, or like when the thought just comes into your head that you need to go to the grocery store.

Sam: And then use experience is also getting into your car and driving to the grocery store and like walking around the grocery store. And then that's when you go to the touch. What is the iPad or something like that? To check your items out and then you put, put your items in your bag and put them in your car, and then drive back home. Like that entire thing is UX. Not just even though we are designing for you know that I've had at the grocery store realistically, we should think about from the whole thing, to point A up to point B.

Dianne: Customers that don't give you all the information... feel like they should not necessarily always give you all the information. They have the best intentions, but my feedback to them is no, always give all the

Sam: I think I think I'm not giving enough information at the very beginning and from my experience, it's like it's almost like we have to play the game of picking up the pieces or something. We hear a story and then maybe in a meeting or something, like 2 weeks later we pick up another piece of the story so that I can really do that. Like at least for me and I like that hindered a lot of my process because I will be so far down in a rabbit hole like deciding on something that when a new piece of information comes in on like a wait, this is new until I got to stop my tracks and kind of rethink the entire problem all over again. So I guess this is it this is an Ode to try to get as much information as possible at the very beginning that way to say is everybody so much time.

Dianne: Yeah. Yeah, amen. Amen,

Dianne: I want to go to pick up where you left off as far as your career. So we talked about the graphic designer and then you ended up taking a boot camp. I want to quickly touch on this cuz I think we've had many conversations about boot camp, grads and like expectations. How was it for you? Who took a boot camp, how long ago, what year was it

Sam: 2 years ago? I'd say, are

Dianne: 2 years, okay. So what was that process from boot camp to getting a job? What did that look like for you?

Sam: It was pretty challenging. I'm not going to lie, I know there's a lot of I don't know if it's stigma, that's the right word for a lot of perceptions around it and they can be very disheartening sometimes. But honestly though like

Sam: I think boot camps provide a great foundational starting point to build that basic knowledge. But to be honest, it didn't teach me everything that I need to know. You act like, there's so much experiential learning that taught me more. I say about the other side of learning like Bootcamp just gave you like a glimpse of what UX. is just a glimpse of maybe like, you know, basic industry terminology but it's really up to you to go in and do a little bit deeper into the content and topics that interest you the most. And from there at like, like leaving Bootcamp with the portfolio of like three projects. I think it was good enough to get me started, but there was definitely a lot more work that he needs to do in order to land a job. So, after it, I picked up a couple of short-term contracts that we're like, 6 months, long or something like that. I did it either for free or at a very very low cost. A couple of bucks an hour like helping out a friend or something like that. To try to put what I learned in Bootcamp into practice and identify the gaps in my knowledge that I didn't know. I needed to spell like maybe I knew Basics about information architecture and my friend's website is a little bit messy to learn a little bit more about it on my own before. I felt like it was at a good enough place for my friends last night or something like that. So I think overall it was a good experience. Definitely worth investing a lot of time or a little bit more time into it and building up that portfolio and just trying to sell yourself to companies with real-world experiences that will help them. See the potential trust you to handle the problem. Well, and then for you to ultimately ran at the job and I think everybody will definitely.

Dianne: Yes, so something you said is I want to go back to you is after boot camp. You needed to take on more work before you kind of got that full-time gig. And I think that's important because I think a lot of graduates earn impression that like they have all the tools in their toolbox and they can just jump into to a full-time job. And I know, interviewing designers and Junior designers is what I look for is the designer has taken what they learned in boot camp and applied it to a real world project. And it sounds like you did. And it's like the learning experience. It's not like you're going to make $80 an hour straight out of boot camp and it's working your way up and taking on those little projects and you're like realize some of those gaps like information architecture and I just want to call it out again because I think that once you graduate you gotta keep pushing and you got to keep working and you have to apply your skills to real-world because I think that boot camp while it gives you the foundation's. It's not a real world experience.

Dianne: So what was your first job out of boot camp was at a startup correct? What were those responsibilities from going from boot camp working on a couple of freelance projects to getting a full-time  working with a start up. How, how did you feel during those maybe first few months?

Sam: In the start up, right after boot camp, Iwas the only designer on that team and we were building a product from zero to one. Literally. Like it didn't even exist at all. And so I was like, fresh out of boot camp. I like, didn't really know too much about UX. I need the fundamentals and like the process, but I didn't know that you can break the process and just pick and choose whichever works better for you. I guess I wasn't waiting right now, but

Sam: it was exciting, stressful, overwhelming, I don't know. Just a rush of emotions in a way because it's like, wow, I get to work out. So, I mean, it's brand-new. I am being thrown into the deep end. I don't know anything at all and I think that's a skill that a lot of us ux designers, like have probably Master. I just don't know anything I thought. Probably the best phrase in UX is "I dont know anything" I guess, you know, that was, it was an exciting, exciting period of my life and I'm grateful for that opportunity, but it was very challenging to be the only designer on the team.

Dianne: Yes, that sounds like I was like, oh my gosh, I feel so intense to me. That is, that's a lot, you know, that's a lot to ask of a junior designer to but one thing you said I like kind of taking some of the things you say, and all of these, I feel like I said, that one thing you said to meet, I'm breaking the process. That is something that I think takes designers to the next level. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what breakingthe process is.

Sam: Yes. So breaking the process means I know this might be unexpected but break in the process means understanding the process very deeply and then knowing which parts of break

Sam: It's interesting because it's like I know like in bootcamp will teach you. Like these are the stuff that you need to go through. You need the first user research, brainstorm on sticky notes, make the user personas, make The Journey map, and then go into designing screen from like low Fidelity to Mid Fidelity to prototype and stuff like that. So that is, yes. The entire frame is very important, every single step of the way. But as I'm learning right now, in this light Consulting agency world, is that really you come to have to pick and choose, which methods are going to be the most beneficial to a project and and be beneficial for you to gather as much information as you can? Because in the real world you can be working with some strict time constraint and probably resources and budgets and unfortunately, the reality is that we can't go and do all those processes and a linear order. So,

Sam: maybe you only have time to do, you know, to do, Journey, mapping, and then go right into building the screen? Silly up and then and then but then you also have to go back and revise that Journey map if you discovered you inside or something like that. And the thing that's so cool about design is a toolbox, all this stuff is like tools into a box where you can pick and choose which will get you to  to solve your goals and your problems faster. But you don't necessarily always have to do all of them at once, if it is beneficial to you and your project. But that's the breaking of process for me, though. What, what are you? What are your thoughts about it?

Dianne: Yes to everything. You said the process. So well that you know, where to break it. And yes. Like with all of our customers, like let's be honest. Usually the process is broken and broken on a bad way. Like broken, isn't we have to break it because we have tight deadlines or we can't do user-testing like we originally wanted to there. So many factors that go into making the process. And it doesn't mean that we're going to do it for a bad product. That means the designer knows where they need to cut Corners to be able to deliver on the main goal of of the future of the product that they're working on. So, I mean, everything, you said, I completely agree. So I absolutely love how you to find that.

Dianne: I want to actually move to something else. Another Hot Topic in. This is also kind of where you are in your career at the stage. So you've started with the startup. Let's talk about the start of all this talk about designing for the start of what you did a little bit. And that's obviously what you do at the Design Project as well as we work with startups. So maybe you can talk about working at the start up

Sam: I love that question because I love you startup companies in a sort of environment. So, so energizing and refreshing and exciting and just a really cool place to be in, because it's fast-paced, you know, everybody works hard. Everybody's just so passionate about what they do and the mission or the problem that they're trying to solve, right? Cuz it's, you're essentially building a product of 0 to 1.It doesn't even exist in this world and trying to make a huge impact.

Sam: My experience working at TDP and other startup companies like a like is that is just the energy and the fun, we get to do it. Something that I just don't get to get the experience, if I'm working in corporate. I think it's just like, I think it's just like being able to be in an environment that encourages you to try things out and break things, and come up with new ideas that may or may or not work, you know, but it's a great and safe space for us to try things and experiment. Experimentation is a huge part of that, your ideas are able to come to fruition a lot faster than they would in other environments. Like, you know, a bigger company or something on a larger team with a bigger organizational structure. I'm not to say that the startup world is, isn't for everybody. I understand that, like, I know it takes a very specific person to love the chaos at the start of World brains, but I don't know, I guess. For me it's energizing. It's great to work with passionate people.

Dianne:Yeah, I love that but maybe it's so what is the benefit of working with larger companies? Cuz there are benefits and there are a lot of reasons to work at larger companies that are more complex and have that structure and have those teams of designers. What, have you enjoyed about working in that environment?

Sam: So large a larger or bigger, environment also very benefits as well because I think structure is important, you know, sometimes don't get out of the environments that corporate environments. It's like they usually have processes in place and you typically do have a lot more resources where you can go and reference or like, you know, go talk to somebody on the team. Is there an engineer or something like that? So many different perspectives corporation, not to say that you don't get that a startup company, but I don't know if you work in a company with. 500 people are more then you just have access to, you know, many different perspectives. So I guess like, yeah, I guess like structure is structure. Where is can make you feel a little bit safer in larger company environments, because it's like you already know what it is like, It's predictable. You do you know what you're going to be working on the next 3 months, you know, you're you know, like how things are going to be, you know what to expect. And I think I start a company. Sometimes you don't get that because things are changing so fast all the time. I say that's probably one of the biggest differences between a larger environment.

Dianne:I do feel like it's like the comfort in the structure and I think it's actually for saying people starting their careers is that's a nice starting point because you do have that structure and you do get to learn from wide variety of people. So you kind of did a little in reverse too, so that's an interesting insight. Okay, so you kind of, let's talk about between that first job that first start of job to now, I know you've worked a couple of years in the industry. I would say you're a senior designer. And so what does that look like from you from starting until now as far as your design skill set?

Sam: That is a good, reflective question.

Sam: The biggest skill set that I've learned is to take what I learn just kind of going with the flow. Honestly, when I was from that startup company at the beginning of my career, I always felt like I had to know everything I had to just follow the process so that's just something that I only knew how to fall back on when I didn't know how to do something. But honestly, it's hard to fit every single situation that you come across any work in a box. So it's almost like you have to just type it at any moment and be like, you know, I don't know the right way to approach this but I'm going to figure it out and that's what's going to be okay. Like I have you spell experiences or something to figure it out . From where I was where to where I am now it's just kind of like confidence in myself that I won't always know the answer to everything and that's okay. But as long as you have the skill sets are as long as you have that beliefs that, you know, that you will figure it out at any point on my thing is like one of the biggest things I've learned in the past years of working.

Dianne: Yes, yes. That's what I say, too. So like from graphic designer, to do designer, to senior designer, to design lead to owning the design project. The, further along, I get in my career, the more I realize I know nothing like I know absolutely nothing and I like that because every day is pushing me to learn a new skill. I learned something new and I think that really does. It was such a weird definition thing that defines a senior designer. The kids to find someone that's going further in their career in design is like embracing them knowing that you don't know the answer and being okay with it and exploring solutions. I completely sympathize with that and I think that's so true for me as well.

Dianne: I want to send a couple of minutes talking about process and organization because I know that's something that you have definitely brought a lot of insight to the Design Project. I'm kind of organizing files setting up for success and doing all of that pre-worker. Just make sure that you have a template to work from and talk a little bit about that. Because what you've done for TDP has been huge for us to organize.

Sam: So this is really funny because I know we just finished talking about breaking or process and not fall in the process and my favorite thing to do at TDP is still processing

Sam:It's great though because we just talking about how like sometimes don't have a structure in a way and I love being able to bring process and structure to start a company. I think like an order for a startup company to grow and scale with mechanisms and operational processes in place to help us to move faster. Them at our level I mean with flexibility and adaptability right? With processes at TDP, I love being able to build a foundation for the company and just trying to figure out what works for us and what doesn't work for us. The process that is almost like an experiment in a way like, oh, this is awesome, guys, this is going to help us streamline our work slow, or something like that. So we can deliver more value to our customers and less about it is, you know, working on in like loves. Like that's the core of our company is that we can deliver faster design and a smaller than the time out of you. So, because our main focus at TDP is about making design, more accessible to many different companies and I think in order for us to do that, would you have to have a process in places like that allows us to work more efficiently.

Dianne: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there's no need to start from scratch, scratch, especially say, like, you helped us organize our figma file. So, like, before every new customer, we have a structure, for how we do a future. Like we have, this is where the inspo goes in. This is what an example of a inspo as this is where you can put in your inspiration. You already have like this framework and like, just by having these like Frameworks and he's starting places, it's been, it's saved us so much time, so that we can actually spend time doing the Dirty Work. Actually find that info and actually putting together those wire frames and more. And I think having those foundations gives us the flexibility, we have a foundation, but we can break it, and we can do what we want with it with any news, like little set of constraints.

Sam: Yeah, I love what you said about that too, cuz it's like, I know we need lovers a lot about material UI design systems and see if they Design Systems. I like, that we don't have to be built these components that they already exist. And I like what you said about that, where it's like if we can leverage what is already existing, we don't have to reinvent the wheel so it gives us more time to focus on other things.

Dianne:So what I would like to do to finish this is like we're what's the next step for you? So you're kind of in this you're in the senior level designer roll and you working part-time with TDP and you have other gigs are working on. Where do you want grow from here? What is your next stage as a designer?

Sam: I always wanted to be a like a design lead or like a head of design or some sort of leader at some team that just leaves a bunch of other designers. I want to get more until like the people aspect where I can like mentor and just help other designers grow and their career paths. I don't know, I have like a love for people in that way where it's like, I just want them to do good and seek in, like, do good and like, get to where they want to be. And I want to be able to coach them to get there. So, the next step for me is just to make sure I nail down my design foundations. A lot of contradictions, in this podcast. But I know it's funny. But no, definitely just to nail down the foundations. Make sure that I am constantly growing and improving on these skills because UX is changing every single day, tech is changing every single day and then taking those skills and being able to, I don't know, like Mentor, others lead a team and just have them, or I guess, a stronger stay in the Company products. Whichever that may be so is just wanting to get more into that people leading role and I don't know, see what comes out from that

Dianne: I love that. And I'm, I'm excited to follow your journey to this next stage of your career and I definitely. Yeah, I wish you all the luck. I'm super excited to watch you grow. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me and talk about your career going from a psychology major to being a senior designer at startups and corporate companies. It's definitely been like a fun journey and lots of contradictions and I hope that it's inspiring to other designers at any stage that there is. Thank you so much Sam.

Sam: Yeah, thank you Dianne so much for having me on this podcast I enjoyed our conversation and just for the opportunity so TDP has a special place in my heart.

Dianne: I love it. Thanks Sam.

Dianne Eberhardt

Dianne Eberhardt

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