#08 - Patricio Torello - Studying in SCAD being Argentinian, the Importance of Team Communication, and How To Keep Fresh your Design Knowledge

27 min read • Dianne Eberhardt

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Dianne: Welcome to the pixelated perfect podcast. Oh, thank you so much for being on the pixelated. Perfect podcast. Yes. I'm so I'm so excited to kind of dive a little deeper into your career. I've talked to you I guess I talk to you it's been a couple months now and then we had been in contact a few months back and you know, I really loved your story and where you came from and really like your passion and what you're looking for out of the future. So not I don't want to spoil anything so I'm not going to tell any of your big secrets because you'll reveal them now. So I would love to just jump right in and I would love for you to kind of tell us like, how did you get your start in design and kind of where are you today? What was that? What was that full process?

Patricio: That's awesome. Yes, thank you so much for the opportunity. So it's been already a long, long time, right? Like it's been like, I've been in the industry for almost 10 years and so I started studying graphic design, like, in 2009, I did college at the United States. So, I'm Argentinian to give full context to everybody, but I used to play soccer. And, and I got a full scholarship which was a school that I always wanted to go. And it was a great opportunity for me and it was, it was an incredible place where I made a lot of friends and I had the opportunity to study with Incredible professors. So, once in there, I did start with graphic design. And since I had a couple of credits that I transferred from Argentina, I went further and did some extra classes in usability UI design, and then some front-end development classes in which I was really into and I could have, I could make a minor in business. So I think that mixing all those skills was something that I always, I always want. And once I graduated from college, I started my professional life in Chicago, in a company called Acuity Group, which was acquired them by Accenture and today is part of Fjord interactive, but yes, I was missing a little bit of Argentina missing my family, my friends, which are really important in my in my daily life. I came back here and started working in different several agencies and being in the into product in the day today. And I think the most remarkable experience that I've had it was like I had the chance to work at which is really, really incredible agency. And in there, I was in The Experience design team and well had the opportunity to work for pretty big clients such as Nike Google Tiffany and that was a really, I don't know, people tell moment in my career and then after that I would immerse in several fintech projects and now and that was the moment where I started like, you know, like narrowing down more in which kind of industry I wanted to be at and that led me to my first opportunity at a fintech in Argentina called Ank. And that's where another, another job opportunity came for to visit to switch to a Brazilian digital bank. And yes, that was my past like three years, my career and undoubtedly was the best job experience that I've had in my life. And I had the opportunity to work in several MVPs in the insured tech industry. We launched with my co-workers, incredible talented people, we launched a health insurance and then I moved. Then we were we started to work with an another type of insurances. I cannot talk much about them but then I got I got I moved into investments and well, my lastest experiences were like working last year on the on the IPO of the company. And it was probably the biggest project that I've ever worked in my life. And yes, now I have recently moved to Visa so. Well, there were a couple of different things that I wanted to to learn in my career. So here is here we are.

Dianne: Thanks for walking me through. There were definitely some things I had forgotten from the last times I chatted with you so that was like I was like following Along on your journey, okay? So I definitely have some key things. I want to dive deep Brown in hear more about Kind of like starting at the beginning. So I want to hear. So whoever for everyone that doesn't know, scad like Savannah College of Art and Design. It's super Elite design art school and I'm curious about. So you said you, you kind of majored in graphic design, minored in business and you took some extra classes about usability you. I fronted I'm curious being at such like a Like high-tier art school. Like what were those courses Like, For You, especially like some of those ui/ux courses? What did that consist of?

Patricio: Yes, perfect. And at that time, when I started at College, I always knew I wanted to do something related with web right web apps. We're just starting at the other that moment and there wasn't a major in UX. So which the school has it right now. Actually, one of my of my professors is like to say, like directing the course, Jason Fox and incredible. An incredible guy starting through graphic. I think I had some several like, different have two other professors that I think that they were like impacted my career a lot. They are Marianne and Bob Newmann And they helped me through all the design mindset. Not only through skills, right? And I think in that area is cut. It's incredible. It, I don't know. I believe that it's helped me to think. And to refute things from a designer's perspective, which I believe they are really important in our process. There were some other other falks with that we're doing like UI design courses and I think I started to get in there just because I knew a little bit more a little bit. But like, once I got in there, I was like, okay, this is like I'm totally passionate about this like Debbie. I remember is, what was my professor in the you UI class And it was, it was incredible, right? Like, it was like, First times into getting into Design Systems into understanding, how the future. At that moment of what we were doing, it was going to be.

Dianne: Yeah. No, that's great. You know, I think that a lot of product designers that come from like a graphic design background. I think having that knowledge about like, colors and accessibility and like, how to think about design is so important. And I think that that's like kind of that first step to becoming a great product designers. Knowing these principles, these are these are principles not even designed to start in general.

Patricio: Totally, I'm totally agree. And you know what, I always presented and I'm glad my professors, let me do that. And this talks really worried about them, I always presented things on on screens, I knew I wanted to do my colors. They were all like RGB related, you know, like all my printed stuff, it was like, not a little bit shitty to do to do not be speak in a proper English. So, yes, I'm I was always prepare for that kind of medium. And in my case, I always knew I was getting into graphic design because of that.

Dianne: Yeah, I love that. I so I also majored in graphic design and I can tell you that, like, at the end of my college experience, they like the last two years, they started to introduce more web based design courses, but to be honest like the majority of it was like print and like that's what it was at the time I took like a flash class flashing even like exist anymore so that's kind of like useless. So it's great to hear that. Like you were able to go into these classes and they let they they were happy to have you percent and do things on screens and and like kind of work with you on your passion of being more on the website of things.

Patricio: I actually got it at the career fair at Collin College, so I got this. I got the job. My last day of school I would have I was supposed to be present in my portfolio that day, but I got the interview and they flew me from Savannah to Chicago. And I told that to my professor one, Marianne one of my friends today, right? And as I and she told me, like if you don't fly to Chicago, I'm gonna kill you. So, you better get on the plane, you will present the portfolio. Like send it to me later. You've done plenty of presentations already. it was incredible. It was incredible. And once I started working at the company I realize that my learning process it was over it was starting at the moment when I got in the team I knew I would like I knew that at College, I was learning a couple of things and Concepts and things on how to frame ideas and my my learning process was gonna continue probably all my life. So I remember one of my first project, I did a shit like completely like it was a really bad job from my time, I look at it, right? My our art director was really good and really picky about a couple of things and I don't know. Looking back. I thought like, you know, like some Concepts from usability, she helped me, she probably doesn't even know how much she's helped me. So that's that was a, that was a great thing. I always have it in my mind and I say I'm gonna send a message and tell her. I'm sorry for the quality of the job that I did.

Dianne: I mean, I think that's like very much a designer that's like a designer thing, right? Like you look at any work you do, even something you did like, I don't know, six months ago you look back and you're like, oh my gosh, there's so many things I would do differently. Now. I think that's like every designer has that.

Patricio: Ya know. I have I always have that feelings and I actually I kind of hate that feeling constantly but at the same time, I like it because it pushes me to want more. So I think it is crucial in our profession.

Dianne: Yeah, no, I agree and I think you also talked a little bit about like, you getting your first job. That's like really. When you were learning, like you learn Concepts and school. But like bam, you get your first job and you're like, thrown into it and that's where you have to learn. You have to learn like soft skills, right? Like how to communicate with people how to talk to senior bosses like up the chain?

Patricio: Completely agree. Completely agree. But yes, it was it was a great experience. I don't know the city, I loved Chicago until the winter came right. In Buenos Aires is the weather is perfect because it is not that hot. It gets a little bit hot but not that much. It gets a little bit cold but not that much. It doesn't rain too much, but you have some rainy days. So whether in here is pretty good. All of my friends, they were celebrating Christmas in summer and I was, I was by up there as I freezing outside. Yes, that makes you that makes you Miss the country even more.

Dianne: So yes, yes, totally, no, I get that. Okay, so from there you you went back to Argentina and and you, you kind of got, you worked more in agencies and more on product. So talk a little about that transition. Like going from working in Chicago, at your first job to kind of taking on next. Your next level of experiences.

Patricio: When I came back, I Remember December 13. Something like that which was his Sunday. Monday I was working at in my new job which was an agency here in Argentina called Pampa Network. It was a like a market in network and it had some side projects. So, I love that company. Lot of friends from there, even the owners like, like, I love them. We used to play FIFA at the other breaks and I had the opportunity of, like, being really creative from the design perspective and also keep on doing some things from the front end development perspective. Like most of the teams would they were engineers so they help me. So it was it was a great, a great job experience.

Dianne: Yeah, you know, that's interesting. I want to hear more about like, coming from a designer standpoint learning more about development and learning get like, do you enjoy coding? Do you enjoy that side of product?

Patricio: I really do. But up to a point, I think I am much better into with descriptive languages like markup language, like, such as HTML or css, which are actually impacting the resign. Rather than getting into, you know, like back-end stuff I did actually a full stack course. And then, in the second part of the course, you got the really, really hard and I was like suffering. It is like, I want this to finish as soon as possible. But I do believe it helps me in my career in order to understand engineer's perspective, in order to negotiate with them because sometimes We as designers we are dreamers and sometimes I believe it is part of our challenge to understand in which moments, we need to Delight a customer. And in order to understand as well, in which moment we're gonna Save times for development. For example, this been said maybe an input is not the place to become real. Creative. It's a pattern that most of our users will understand and will not see that value, right. And maybe another point of part of our, of the G of the flow, we can introduce a much creative pattern if we birth and a lot, our Engineers with a lot of stuff, it is really hard to get on time with the roadmap. So that should be part of our daily conversation within within our teams, right?

Dianne: I absolutely love this conversation. I think it's so powerful. I think so many designers. One of the hardest things that they struggle with is communicating with their development teams and when they see their designs, they're usually not what they expected because they didn't have those conversations with the development team. They weren't there to support their Dev team in their dive team had questions and yet negotiate with their developers like, you're right, an input field, like, What is that really going to add that much value to your users know, but maybe like a success screen and you can do some confetti, I don't know, but I'm sure developers to do something there for sure.

Patricio: I've always found our folks from the engineering team been really receptive and you know what from their mindset. They are people who are all have, always challenged the way I design, because they are much more systematic and logical, and I believe that we always need to listen to our Engineers. I don't know. I believe I'm a from the from design. I do believe I have some skills. I'm not gonna be humble from that from that, from the way. But, but I always believed there were there, like, plenty of designers way better than me way better than me waiver. However, being humble from the design perspective, it helps me to understand that to understand that an engineer could give me a really good output to understand that there are always some other product or visual designer way better than me. And I take this concept because I want is the only at the end of the day. What I want is to launch products to launch products that work the best possible way. And to, I don't know, make the customers fall in love with their product with our product. So yes, that's our goal, right?

Dianne: Yes, that is definitely. Our goal is designers. Well, shut. I agree. Um, the last thing I want to say about this conversation, that also is a really good point that you made was about the roadmap. Like sometimes when we have all these crazy designs and all these things that are going to make it pop, the developers are going to lose track of that road map, and it's going to put everyone behind. So it is really like negotiating. Making sure. Because at the end of the day business goals are important, like making sure you're hitting those deadlines and making sure you're able to follow that road map as closely as possible.

Patricio: I always say to my to my friends, there are always cheaper ways to design for you. And yes, I think that's something to have in mind especially when launching a new product and MVP. We can do it in the hard way in the but we need to be like B Street Street on some as designers on some topics, right? Because otherwise we won't change the status quo on some patterns.

Dianne: Definitely, yes. And I mean, the roadmap is built by everyone, right? Like product team, that's the designers and the developers and the project managers and whoever your product team consists of, so it's all of you guys. Yeah. Having that agreement and agreeing on it and building it out, that's awesome. I actually do have some questions about MVP, but before we get into that, I want to talk about your work with RGA and working with these really big companies. What Was that like to be able to work on a Nike project or Google or Tiffany? What was that?

Patricio: It was really really good. I did like it is been in touch with such huge Brands and I believe RGA hires, I think it's a company that does a lot of things, great. Like I have a lot of friends from RGA, really good friends. Like we meet each other like Once twice per month. Like like we have become really good friends. And and that talks really were about, which kind of people they hire, right? And which kind of work environment they generate. And I think it is probably one of, if not the best, probably the best work environment that I, I've worked in my life and and then one Translating that good vibesinto the kind of clients that you're going to be facing. I think it makes us with a really, really great job. Like, it is understandable that when working for Google, for example, from an agency perspective, sometimes you do like I'm not gonna say smaller smaller jobs, but however, it doesn't have the level of depth that you will find when working in the day-to-day, with the product, right? Like, for example, I had to build a calendar for an event for Google within their Google developers days. From the level of complexity. It was a calendar where like Engineers could RSVP their invitations. However, for me as a designer, it added me a lot. It was like, okay, started to work with people from Google and also, to understand their ecosystem. Understand. They're in that in that moment was like their material design type of design system. So, as a designer it is it is, it is some it's a really I think there is always like moments for everything and working in an agency. It is a really important step, especially working at an agency that has that type of clients and that type of Vibes.

Dianne: Yeah, I yeah I think that was. Yeah I love what you just said about all that. I feel like I keep saying I love what you just said but I think that having that experience at an agency and especially working with these really big companies, like you said, it's like you're kind of working not fully in their ecosystem. It's like you get to see it but it's like a little separate. So you have like yeah just like all of that those Dynamics. I feel like probably was such a learning experience as a designer. I have your hands and everything and work with so many different companies and learn so many different techniques and tools.

Patricio: Yes and and to be a little bit selfish as well to build up your portfolio right? Like probably you need a portfolio that is built on big clients. You want your portfolio to be part of like my clients strategies.

Dianne: So that's a really good point. You know working with an agency, you get to put in all of these case, studies into your portfolio versus working with one cuss one company. While you're doing all of the tiny details and working super hard. You don't have that same kind of. Wow factor. And in case study.

Patricio: Of course, you can, of course we can see it in different ways as well, right? Like I can be a designer who goes to a smaller agency and works from scratch on Brands and I you become like on brands on Design Systems, right? Like in my case, I was working more with Experience design team. So for me, working on the experience with their design system with their brand. That was like even better than beneficial for me. Sometimes you can work from scratch on on a, on a new brand or any new in a new product, you can work either on The Branding. In my case, I will work on a design system from scratch. So that gives you the opportunity to be like, okay to do. Do whatever you want or whatever, not whatever you want, we never do whatever we want. 100%, right? But at least to be like really having the opportunity to build your baby as we always say.

Dianne: Yes. Yeah. I mean let's let's talk about building from scratch and MVPs like you've You've built a couple of MVPs Design Systems from scratch. How did all of your former experience lead up to this? And what were the challenges you faced in the MVP world? Because there are many challenges you face. Yeah, I'm design system and there are different.

Patricio: Yes. And some, for example, a ANK we build an MVP and we build the whole product from from scratch, we had an agency, which is a gradation. Design has no name here in Argentina, they helped us with the branding. Then we started working. Once we understood the brand values, brand, all the brand Aesthetics, we could start working as well, on the on the design system to match because it was, it was I work for other brands. May be that they were not as digital and I could see a lot of challenges from that perspective, when the brand is, is born digitally. Usually you make everything thinking that he has to work on a that type of system, right? So it was really important to understand colors, typography to understand that's something that I would do in a different way. Looking back at the job that I did not to try to burden myself too much into creating the perfect library, right? Like, you go and you see material like iOS libraries or why big Brands libraries or like, I don't know everybody. I'm least Design Systems Etc. You can see a huge Like component library. But you have to understand that they also have like huge teams working on them. So if you are like a new design and designer working on a on a new design system, you I think you have to give yourself time to understand that things are going to bulb, things are going to evolve through times. And once you require them, you will start working on them and adding them. This been self, for example, Maybe we work on the foundations of the, of the design system in bouton's that we, you know, you will need in typography Etc, but maybe you can start polishing a slider once you need it. So those kind of things are thing. I think I would do in a different way.

Dianne: Yeah, that's really great feedback for designer starting and MVP. So at the design project we book work with startups. So we are starting to build those. Design Systems from scratch and definitely kind of running into those issues of like that balance between oh, we want to do all these cool things with the design system. But when you do it all have of, it's not used because it's such an early stages and so many things are still in flux that like it's a waste of time. So yeah it's like usually what we tell customers and our clients is this is an evolving ever-changing. It's a living breathing document and this is stage one and will. Continue to build upon it and continue to build those components in those atoms, but I agree. Yeah. Starting off too. Big is is just a waste of time for the moment, for sure. So what was you, you helped, was it new bank IPO. So you worked with them. What was that? Experience working in a company and kind of getting to that level.

Patricio: It was crazy, but it was incredible. He was like, last year. This was last year, right? And I had a busy year for sure. However, the thing is could work with with with colleagues and our incredible and due to that the day-to-day was like, was better than what you will have been. If they were not that great and I think I learned a lot to manage some situations. My peers, help me to learn that and that so I don't know. It was, it was so we work in different perspectives, right? Like I do believe, like one of my biggest skills is to understand flows and understanding this how we might utilize our structure from a, from a technical perspective and I had the opportunity to work with other designer his The Talented one. Now he is if I always relate everything with soccer and as I said, if we were talking about soccer, he's Messi and I'm a defensive midfielder, so I'm sorry argentinians. We do all these analogies with soccer, especially getting closer to the World Cup. It is already in our mind, we are chatting about it. But it's true in that case he was a Messi. He we could talk about Pelé or Neymar because he's Brazilian, right? And but yes, what I what I think I did I did well at that moment was like, okay to understand those kind of things to frame all the things from the product design perspective and try to gain speed and with my boss who really helped me a lot. And of course, our design BP Who is the person that I truly admire Lucas Pettinati I truly admire and really blessed for all the opportunities that he's given me in my career. And yes, I'm such a sweetheart And I have more people because I don't have like I haven't talked about my boss at Ank even Fede Gonzalez Who was who is incredible talented boss, I had a RGA so I will have to name them before because the I think that's the best thing about my my career. And about the environment that we work at, we work with cool people and we can have fun. And and and that's that's we are blessed to that and we have job opportunities.

Dianne: Well, let's talk about culture because that is so important and you've mentioned it throughout a lot of these jobs that you had is that that culture was really what was inspiring and being able to learn from other designers, other developers project managers your bosses. What do you think makes a great culture at a company?

Patricio: Oh, that's a tricky question. but I don't know. Some people's have like different if I think finding the exact balance between not that process oriented, right? And not being like, okay, all a mess. It's what makes a place what make like what makes a place great when you when your day-to-day it becomes, you know like meetings meetings meetings meetings after meetings it is because like okay something is not not going well and when you don't have any something is not going well, neither because what are you going to be designing? This by yourself. You're not going to be talking with your engineering team or with your peers so I think. And right after the pandemic, we have like a lot, we are all working remotely and like, we are facing that challenge. Sometimes I feel like really burnt after a full day of meetings and I just need to go, actually, I take the dog. but she takes me for a walk. We go to square that I have close to my to my house. I throw her the wall, she comes back with it and it's like, she's helping me. Not. I'm not doing this because of her and I actually do it because of her. But, you know, like but I think that that balance is it's a huge challenge. Of course, I understand some moment, for example, Launch in the IPO last year. I knew it was gonna be like that and it's like, fine, I'm totally on board. I really want to do this, you know. And I know this year is going to be tough perfect. Right. But then there are there are some some projects in which we don't need unnecessary meetings. Like we can solve things in a faster way.

Dianne: Yes, I think that's so true. There's definitely that balance. It's like first us as designers are usually not always, but usually like more introverted like we want to be at our desk and work versus like being on calls all day. That's not usually where we get our energy. Not to say that there aren't designers that are an expert in just, I'm gonna say design.

Patricio: I'm not gonna say I'm an extrovert. However, I do like to talk with people go to a bar, and there you go, and grab a beer with everybody in the team myself that.

Dianne: I like that as well. But I think, I think it is finding that balance because there's a level of like too many meetings and as a designer role is really to do that deep work in that deep thinking and if designers don't have that space to do it in the designs that they come up with are going to not be great. So boldly definitely finding that balance.

Patricio: I'm sometimes I feel it. We do it to ourselves in this sounds right. Like we put too many rituals too many things and sometimes those they don't have any update and we are in meetings in there watching at each other rather than like fine. Like I just I just need my time, right?

Dianne: Yeah, that's true. You know, I think one of my like productivity hacks has I have time on my calendar the same time every week blocked off for deep work and like no one can schedule meetings. I don't accept any meetings like that is deeper time even if I don't know exactly what I'm working on that day. All I know that I have that time set out. So that's why I think that's so important. You put some music on the background, you know, that's your time into the Zone. Yeah, on my slack, I put the little brain. So don't disturb me. I like as my status. Yep. I got I got my system figured out but yeah, I do think there is that balance and I do think that makes a great culture and also everyone. A part of that team understands like the role of the designer and giving them that space and like appreciates that and yeah and also collaborating so hot like you said if you don't have meetings or something wrong so totally agree with that. Like you have to schedule a time to review designs with everyone involved in get feedback because designers don't work in a silo. It usually doesn't work that way. Yeah there's so many other people involved. So you recently took a position at Visa? How is that going? What what is your job position there? And what are your responsibilities?

Patricio: I am a senior staff designer and I'm currently working on different co-creation with different clients within the whole region. And these days I'm really into understanding crypto and the future of blockchain and how many I don't know which are the opportunities that are going to come up for the users in a close future. It's something that intrigues me a lot and yes, I think combined payments companies. There are some things that that I don't want. I cannot talk much about it, but that I some interesting things that are going to come up. Well, we have already been seen them, right? Like, I don't know, I think maybe because of our, our countries economies and I structure we have been pushed much more into understanding and adopting blockchain crypto payments Etc. So like for example, you can find companies such as Lemon which is a company that lets you like, okay converts directly the crypto, your crypto senior in your car directly into Fiat. So and that's it like a lot of people are saving and saving money in USDT because of our country's economic so well, all those kind of things are gonna are gonna come eventually. We all like not only cryptos as payment right like but also blockchain has a technology. What is gonna is gonna add two to our day-to-day lives, right? Like there are some other products like Travelex they are creating something really great in the travel industry and other token. A client that we had a co-creation last week. They are tokenizing like grains. Like so green. So you grains for example and like yeah, it's it is to understand the business model like in this case was like the aggro and a growing industry and a growing industry and then also understanding how they were gonna do this kind of like blockchain and crypto integration. So yes it's been it's been a a tough month because it's been like really, really busy as well, but but I believe like in the the past week it was like a lot of new information, a lot of things. And it's like, okay, I need to keep on updating sometimes as a designer, I believe that right? Like I need to keep them fresh, otherwise you're out. Like they the world changes that fast. if you are not updated is like sometimes Like if you do you have to do you have there are some things that you have to push yourself to do them, right? Like, even if like I am not feeling today, like okay. I want to get in a new course but maybe there are some things that I need to do.

Dianne: I agree. I mean, the design industry like product design doesn't even exist 10 years ago right like and where the industry is now like who knows where the industry is going. There's so many mean. Blockchain crypto. Huge like also all the other ways of interacting with products like voice and touch and what 3 like there's so many new interesting ways that designers can place themselves and learn about to be like at the Forefront of those Industries. It's like it's fascinating.

Patricio: Yes. And what if fascinates me the most, I think it is to watch and observe the adoption from the of Technology from from the, from the society, right? Like I see like, I talked about it and I see it in my mom, right? Yes. And it's like my mom, she like, I don't know. Like, five years ago she wasn't even like turning on the computer and today she's doing like QR payments is not like a big deal but in Argentina MercadoPago is so huge that everybody pays with QR, but the level of adoption especially like for example after the pandemic it's like it's become like it's something that I like to watch and observe and sometimes I feel like I'm doing a user testing. You know it like with my mom with my dad and as I understand say how is he not understanding this feature and yes or maybe myself, I'm a total nerd, so I'm searching through. I don't know, I'm watching through I like for to watch a movie like I'm searching and navigating through Netflix and as I do look at that pattern like as I or comparing Netflix with Amazon, right? Like like know the content per safe, but I think estate minutes navigating through through through apps, but not watching anything.

Dianne: I agree. I'm the same way I'm always judging. I'm always judging apps and yeah, I'm just gonna say This Hopefully, it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. But who lose experience is awful to me I never know where I am. I never know what I'm doing. I have struggled with Hulu since like day one. I don't. I'm pretty sure it's not just me, but I feel like their patterns are like, not user-friendly.

Patricio: Yes, I'm like, for example, we don't have Hulu in Argentina, but okay, we I do the comparison between probably Amazon Prime and And Netflix, right? Like and I I don't actually I don't precisely love Netflix content because we are getting into something like the a deeper discussion. I believe they are too much data driven and they are losing that artistic, kind of feeling. And I'm really lucky, I'm really logical sometimes, I don't understand what a Mustang from the 60s. Thirteen cassettes and are doing in the middle of a TV show, right? And it's like, it's so complex. It's so complex that I don't understand it. However, navigating through their experience, it's so easy and so like please please delightful. Yes yes, but Amazon Prime grade but Amazon Prime has the office. So I'm always watching the office is I think it is, was it?

Dianne: I mean, there's always a good occasion to watch another re-watched office. Yes. So to kind of, I could keep going. But for time sake, I think one of the last questions I have for you is like where do you see yourself going in the future? Where do you see your design career going?

Patricio: Oh, that's that's tricky, right? It is tricky. I do believe. I have a lot of things. This is like really cliche, right? Like I do believe I have a lot of things to learn, but it is true. It is true. I know myself. I know in which kind of things, I am not to really bad and I tried to push myself in order to become better, right? Like so I don't know, like my goal is to keep on improving in those areas and pushing myself to improve them and the ones that I naturally do well, I know they're gonna come from myself. So I want to push myself and put myself into that positions, in order to become a little bit more complete. And then in the future, I don't know. I don't know. Honestly, what is what is going to come I do believe, which kind of problems I want to solve as a designer. So I try to find that balance, you know, like because not having that balance in like, work life. I am, I am not a workaholic. And and for me it is really important to be with my friends with my family to go play football to go with people from the office, not only to work, but also to grab a beer to do it actually becomes work at the end because it is All be makes a better environment, but when it's done naturally, it is better.

Dianne: I love that. Yes, agreed. Well thank you so much for chatting with me and about your career. I think we hit on some really interesting, interesting conversation. So I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you.

Patricio: No, thank you for the for this opportunity and letting me I don't know, talk a little bit about my experience and I'm sorry for bringing a lot of people in because I'm really thankful I work with, like, incredibly talented folks and I don't know like there are some people that I really admire such as all everybody that like all the people that I was saying to you or like, I don't know what call continue when I think about my career is built with their with their work, right?

Dianne: Well, thank you so much for yout time and I can't wait to continue to Follow your journey and see all of the awesome things that you end up doing, awesome day. And thank you so much me as well, and hopefully, we will work together in the future.

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