#14 - Micaela Conte - Jumping from Digital Marketing to Product Design

Nov 11, 2022Dianne Eberhardt

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,  Stitcher, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.




Dianne: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pixelated Perfect podcast. I am super excited for today's guest. We have Mica Mica is our newest designer at the design project. I'm really, really excited to dive deeper into her story because I think she has a very interesting background. And I think it'll be very interesting for you listeners out there, kind of how she has transitioned her career over the years. So thank you Mica, for joining. I'm so excited you're here.

Mica: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for asking me to be here tonight.

Dianne: Of course. So let's, let's just get into it. Let's start at the beginning. So tell me, when did design first kind of appear in your life?

Mica: Yeah, Design kind of appeared at a young, for me. I was in high school and we had this crazy art teacher, which who lets us like, do a lot of interesting things. I started to do like colleges, digital colleges, and my computer. I have like this old Photoshop installed, and that was kind of my first approach. I did, didn't know anything. I look at some videos, YouTube videos, and started from there.

Dianne: I love that. That's awesome. That reminds me of when the fir, my first experience with Photoshop was I learned how to take faces from my friends and put them on celebrities bodies. So then I'd always, like, my friends would be like standing next to like their big boy crush. And that was what I started with in Photoshop.

Mica: I totally, I totally get that. One of my, my things with my friends was like, Do this to my body, or made my lips go plumper. It was very, very funny.

Dianne: Yes. Oh, I love that. Yeah, that just reminded me of it. Awesome. So you had this really cool teacher. You kind of played with collages and then what, what did you major in in school?

Mica: In school I was, I did like the creative advertising. I started with creative advertising at first. I have a background in, in advertising. I did art direction. I was like fully into the mode of teaching myself a lot of things. I thought that the University of Buenos Air that teach it, teach graphic design at the time was not so digital. It was very editorial for me. So I was like very eager to learn a lot of things I, and kind of do my own career and my own path. So I did creative advertising, I our direction, website design, branding and into then product design, which I was the best thing I did.

Dianne: Yes. And I, I love that. So teaching yourself and kind of going in that direction, what did that look like for you? What resources did you use to be able to kinda learn on your own?

Mica: Yeah, it was kind of interesting because I am not a reader. I don't like to read so much, but when I, I really enjoy learning. So that kind of balance it out a little bit for me. So yeah, I was like seeing a lot of videos. I'm a very like, visual person. I'm much more of the movie type than the reading type that the book type. So for me it was like a lot of videos, a lot of resources, online resources. I think nowadays internet has like a huge, huge amount of resources that anybody can find. I don't think it's necessary to like, pay for a huge career and, and a lot of courses just to like be someone or get to the amount of knowledge you wanna get. So that was kind of interesting for me too.

Dianne: Yeah, no, that's, that's super interesting. And like, one thing I know about you personally is like that you're very organized and you like to take notes and I think that probably lends a hand with you kind of doing it on your own, right? Like learning and putting together, like did you have like a schedule that you wanted to follow or like a specific, like what you wanted to learn or was it like, Oh, I'll just watch these videos and wherever the YouTube algorithm takes me, that'll be my next video? Or did you kind of like plan out like more specifically what you wanted to learn?

Mica: No, definitely. I'm a planner. You know, me, I'm a planner. I, but it was kinda kind of like where the wind takes me at a interest level, if you know what I mean, because I'm very curious. So I change my, like, the things I liked change quite a lot. As I was telling you, I started with detail marketing and that kind of bored me a little bit. Another thing with, with creative advertise and marketing was kind of the work, like the toxic wor workspace sometimes advertising creates, we can talk about that in a little bit. While that it was one of my reasons to transition into more of a branding and product and web atmosphere. But yeah, I, I really like to, to plan what I was going to study and like put on my, in that time notion was not a thing, but I have like my word and added like a lot of courses and, and YouTube links to it, just to, I love that. Check the boxes.

Dianne: Right, right. Gotta put it on there. That box is like the

Mica: Best feeling.

Dianne: So what was, what was your first job? What was your first big big girl job?

Mica: Yeah, my first bigger job was at a creative agency. So that was really cool. I was a junior designer recently graduated, graduated. And I was really looking forward to learn a lot. It was not an art direction job, it was more of a designer job, which I really loved because I was after doing creative advertising, I kind of realized I didn't want like the art director type of job. I wanted the designer job. So that opened a lot of possibilities for me to work with a lot of clients like CI or a Austral University and also, yeah, kind of teach me a lot. I have a, I had a great designer mentor who, who is a friend of my mine right now. So, but it was super great.

Dianne: I love that. So, so I feel like we jumped into your first job, but I realize that, I guess like, let's, I wanna talk about like that advertising, marketing, that toxic workplace and how you knew that that wasn't the space you wanted to be in. Like let's, let's open that door. I'm curious.

Mica: Yeah, no, it, it, it was difficult for me because I thought that creative advertising was something, something that I had to do and I had to follow because it was like the trend of the time. And I was in and out of different agencies. I didn't find like my way in any of them really. My last agency was a very, very toxic one. I ha I had like working hours from eight o'clock to four in the morning, three in the morning. We were working with a very, very great, not great, but huge client really. It was not great So it's really this thing about like the more you work, the more burnt out you are, the more hours you put, and the less time you have for your social life, the greater you add at your job.

Mica: So that was like, not for me. I think that is something that creative agencies or digital marketing agencies really tend to do. Somebody will come at me for this, but I, that is why I, I really think for, from my experience, right? So at that last agency, the, the, like, the job that really like what, what I was like, that's it was that I got diagnosed with celiac disease. It, it's something you born, you're born with, but it's a disease that triggers with stress. So it was like, this is like, I have to prioritize my health. I have to prioritize my mind. So that was like the, the triggering point for me, really.

Dianne: Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting. I think like, I think the work culture is changing a lot, right? Like recognizing that burnout's real and that there's a balance. And I definitely think there is, and I definitely think it's, it's not only my personal opinion is it's not only about the company. I think the company has a lot to do with it, but it's also about recognizing yourself, like what you want and what's gonna make you happy. And it sounds like you kind of went through that whole cycle of like, Oh, I wanna work, work, work, I wanna do this. And then like, you kind of like hit a wall and you're like, wait, like what is this all for? My health and me is more important than work.

Mica: Yeah, yeah. No, and that is when I kind of transition into freelance, right? So I wanted to really prioritize my health and the things that made me happy, not only with my personal life, but with my work. I'm a, I'm, I consider myself to be a very workaholic person, but limits are are limits, right? So I had to like transition that and as I'm very organized, freelancing for me kind of went naturally. It was really nice for me to connect with different clients to envision what I wanted to do with the projects I wanted to do and kind of bring my voice into the those and my creative direction and my thoughts and strategy and most importantly design. So yeah, that was really, really great.

Dianne: Yes. I love that. I, I would love to open this up to asking more about like, becoming a freelancer. So, and maybe it's more like tips and tricks or for those listeners that are maybe in a full-time job, maybe it's even in the design industry and they're ready to go full-time freelance, like what would you recommend, what are those steps that you took, maybe those learnings that you have, like, Oh, don't do this, I did this. What, what would you suggest for people out there wanting to make that jump?

Mica: I think for transitioning to freelance, for me it's because I'm a very like rational and organized person. I would say have a plan. If you like kind of rush into freelancing, it can be very, very overwhelming. And you have to like, from being into a relationship with another company that like hires you and does your accounting for you and gives you this and that to go in into freelancing, which is hire somebody if eventually you want that path. Going to your own accounting manage a lot of things, client relationships, your own work being well freelance, I think it's super great. I love it, but you're a little bit alone in the, in the process. You don't have like that sense of team work and team bonding and everything that is found in when you work on, on a relationship with your company. So yeah, that, that can be kind of overwhelming and, and that is why I think you should have a plan and you have to like yeah, like stick to that.

Dianne: Yeah. So what was your plan? Did you have like, was it financial goals, Was it number of customers? What is, what was your goal as you transitioned?

Mica: Yeah, I think that from a very young age as I started to, to study design, I have some mini freelance work, so I kinda, yeah, I had that customer base. And so I was all about referrals at that time. Many customers were referring to their friends or their loved ones, people they knew, et, etcetera. So that was my kind of my transition. I have like a lot of backlog clients that I wanted to pay more attention to. And also I was very fed up by, as I was telling you from the marketing industry. So I was like, I love strategy, I love branding, I love website let's do this, this is like now or never. And as I was telling you, I had like the, the, the client base, so it was like, like just given the jump.

Dianne: Yes, yes. I love that. I think that that's kind of my experience when, when I went freelance I didn't, I think I had a couple of connections, but I do recommend for everyone thinking of going freelance is building those relationships, which is definitely something I'm gonna talk about more cuz I know that you have so much experience in that is building those relationships and having those referrals is key. Like that's gonna keep you sustained and confident and, and kind of like bringing in more work. So it's like the more customers you get, the more that they recommend people and then you have this whole network and then you're like having to take on customers that make the most sense for you. So I think it sounds a little daunting, but it's like one connection at a time can turn into that many more, which is super powerful.

Mica: Yeah. Yeah. And I think maybe on that note being a freelance, sometimes you think that you have to like, put advertisement on Instagram and build like a huge powerful website and have all of these resources and pay a lot of things just to get known. And maybe it's like you said, like one customer at a time, like doing that an's work, you know, like very tiny what at the one at a time. So that, that's also very powerful.

Dianne: Yes. And I, and I love what you said about connecting with different clients and it's really like you taking that ownership and envisioning like what the scope of that could be. And like, yes, it can be lonely and I, I agree with you in that spectrum of it, but it's also like freeing and it feels so good to be able to kind of lead your own process and follow what you think is, is best and work with customers that you feel a connection to, which is really special from the freelance world.

Mica: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I had my plate of customers, if we are going to talk about these rights because I had like the best number 10 a student, customers and I had the ones that would not pay me, the ones that could not deliver feedback on time. And that is part of the process of the freelancer, right? Just to maybe learn more about your process, what you need, what your customer needs also, and try to build on those relationships and become better and more professional in what you do.

Dianne: Yeah, that's a great, it, it's true. There's definitely both of those customers. So what would, if you could go back in time to younger you, what would you do differently with maybe some of those tough customers?

Mica: Mm, I think two things. I would prioritize, prioritize myself more and I would learn earlier how to say no.

Dianne: Let's dive into those. Cause those are both really juicy Yeah. Prioritize yourself more. What do you mean by that?

Mica: I mean by that, that I was always a workaholic because I love what I do, but sometimes I would priorit prioritize work and delivering on time instead of me and my things. So I would have like maybe a friends friend dinner with friends and I was like, No, I have to work. Sorry, we'll try to reschedule. And that was not a good thing. Absolutely not.

Dianne: Yes. I actually, I have more questions on this because I a thousand percent agree and I think that's so important to prioritize yourself and to hold yourself accountable. But I also have worked with you enough to know that when you have deadlines, you're going to meet them. And that's also how I think too. Like I think of myself as like planning me time, but I also think that there's I think there's this level, like, I don't know if it's just like 20 22, 20 23. So this is just an open question to you. It's like I feel like people are like, or maybe it's like gen Z coming in. They're like, Oh, I need to do myself. And then like, I feel like they don't do anything and then they use this is, I'm gonna, people are gonna say something about this. I feel like they use excuses for not getting things done. And I don't mean it in like a, like, I don't know, this is just like an open question to you because I think there's self prioritization and then I think there's just like plain like letting things fall through the crack and using it as a way to not do things. Like what do you think about this kind of happening in the workplace?

Mica: Yeah, I think that definitely there's the pandemic and everything that's, there's been like a huge, like energy shift. People are going like trying to reconnect with themselves, the workspace working from home, going into the office, there's like a lot of that happening. And so I feel like also with the newer generations, as you were saying, like there is a lot going on and, and, and a lot of changes. So I think as every transition ever, there's like a middle ground where we have to pass. Like everything is super chaotic and we're trying to like find the, the middle and the common ground and the, yeah, like the balance between everything. So I think that for it to be peace first, there has to be chaos, right? So yeah, so I think this is fully necessary to then like, lead into the path that everybody feels comfortable with.

Dianne: I, I really like the long that line. There has to be, there has to be peace, be wait, there has to be chaos,

Mica: It has to be chaos in order to yes, before to there has,

Dianne: There has to be chaos in order to have peace. I think that's true. I think it's like starting a new job or taking on freelance, like there is those times that are super busy, but recognizing that there has to be an end point and there has to be a place where like you continue to work towards a better process for yourself so that you can't, So it's like, I feel like it's shifts, right? Like sometimes work is a priority, sometimes personal, and you've gotta find that balance. So yeah, there definitely has to be chaos before piece that I really like that. Yeah. I feel like we need to like make that a, some,

Mica: Some motivational speech.

Dianne: Yes, exactly. Okay. That was just, that was my little tangent I went on. But the other thing you said, going back to it was learning to say no earlier, let's talk about that one.

Mica: Oh, well that was not also in my freelance career, but in my like industry advertisement career there was a lot of times which just going back to the first thing I said, I would overwork myself like crazy and would not not say no because I felt like if I said no, if I didn't like work until for for am I was like a bad person. Like I was the worst employee of all time. So I think that is part maybe of the, this, this toxic environment, but also honing myself accountable of that. I would say I was a very junior designer and I didn't know my worth. So as long as you, I think as you know, your worth, you gain more experience. You can like resend yourself in a different way, right?

Dianne: Yeah. So what did, what did that look like for you? Like, I mean, I guess you reach that point where you quit your toxic job, so maybe that was you kind of learning and knowing your worth. But is there another moment or is that the moment where you were like, Hey, this isn't who I am, this isn't I, I can do so much more. I'm worth more than

Mica: Yeah, it was that, there were a lot of times really, there was another time that I, like, I took the blame for a whole team because I couldn't say no. Like that was not me. Everything like led up to me and it was, I was like in a huge ball of chaos,that chaos into peace, right? Yeah. But yeah, that was a different moment for me also.

Dianne: Yeah, I mean that's, I think that's like an important lesson, especially for junior designers. I think it's definitely knowing when to say no and also like leaning on and feeling confident with who you are and what you know and what you don't know. Like I I, my podcast earlier this week with Martin, he said something like it's like milk, if you're a junior designer milk that like you aren't supposed to know everything, right? So like take advantage of that and constantly be learning and growing and like, and feel that and know that and feel confident and that's where you are. And I thought that was really powerful and I feel like that kind of speaks to this as like you're not responsible for the whole team. You were not at that level. You were not valued for your worth. And it's like after that, those experiences you ended up, whether through freelance or whatever, you found yourself and you knew who you were and you knew where you were in your career and what you wanted.

Mica: Yeah. No, and being a junior designer, I think that is what Martin said is very powerful. And also like, don't be afraid to ask the hard questions. The thing you don't understand a lot of maybe I remember a lot of times where I was like, No, if I ask this, I'll be looking like a fool or I cannot be not knowing this or, and nobody expects you to know you should be answered. You should be asking the questions you don't know because that's what makes you really interesting for the whole team. Like adding value to, yeah, the research, branding design in general. So that should be like a really important advice for everyone too.

Dianne: Well, well said. Yes, definitely. So let's continue with freelance. We talked a little bit about how to get into freelance and tools and tricks and learnings from your time in the lance space. So you started off freelancing, What happened after that?

Mica: Yeah, after freelancing, I been freelancing. I had my, my two agencies that I count as freelancing because I was like the, the big part of that.

Dianne: Well let's talk about those then, cuz that's where I thought this was going. Like you started and founded your own agencies, like you were freelancing and then you basically started these companies. Talk about these, these two, these companies that you had.

Mica: One was a digital marketing agency, and the other one, which was my most recent one, was a branding agency. I, it was like a full design, but specialized in branding website. And yeah, it was, it was a ride like the first one, the marketing one I founded with two friends. Eventually with, we came to want different things customer wise, work wise and yeah, we out, like we outgrown it eventually. And the, the branding was, the branding studio was like my baby, if, if I can say that. Like I really focus on what I really wanted which was website, brand identity and strategy. So yeah, that was the, the the one that I learned most in because it was everything I was doing by myself. So it was very, very interesting.

Dianne: Yeah. So like, so this, this digital marketing, when you and your friends kind of parted ways and wanted different things, was that because you wanted to focus on branding websites and strategy? Was that kind of where you were headed?

Mica: Yeah, I, it was the time that two years ago, that product starting in its rice. So I was like, we have to do this. I really want to do some app strategy ui. I wanted to get in that as soon as possible, and it was really my passion. So I was like, let's do this. And they were kind of like, We are a digital marketing agency, What are you talking about? You're crazy. This is not happening. And I was like, Okay, great. Let's keep this, but I want to like, pursue this for my like personal ambitions and goals. So yeah, that was like the transition.

Dianne: Yeah, I mean, yeah. That makes sense. So how did you start this up? Like what were those first initial stages of creating your branding agency?

Mica: It was like late nights after work with a glass of wine and my note part and just writing what I wanted, what, like just kind of manifesting and thinking about what that studio would look like, what it would tell what was the name, what was I going to represent what would my customers be? And a lot of things that you don't typically, typically think you have to think about, but you do So that was really interesting. It was like two months of planning.

Dianne: Yeah, I I love that you said that. I think that like, like when when we started the design project, it kind of morphed. We actually started as a branding, the branding project before moving to the design project. And like right away initially the whole like, it was like, where do, what do we wanna be? Where do we see ourselves in a year? Where do we see ourselves in five years? I think it's so important to put these things down in words and things can change and shift, but having this like guiding light, I think is really key for anyone that wants to like start their own thing. Like have a direction you want to go. What is your mission? What are your values? Who are those target customers? Like doing this up upfront research is everything to make sure that every decision you make after that has a reason and a purpose. And it goes back to some of these initial ideas that you had. So yeah, I, I I love that. And I think that's how you build successful companies, those late nights.

Mica:Yeah, those late nights. Exactly.

Dianne: So you kind of, you launched, where did these customers come from? Were they from like your previous freelancing world? What did that look like?

Mica: Yeah, I started with previous freelancing customers and then I opened my Instagram account and started to do, just uploading my, my work. And I, this was really great, but I started to realize that a lot of people from the US and and Europe went into my Instagram account. So I just saw the comments. I was like, what do they like, what do they prefer? And started to upload more of those things. And I, I then started to, yeah, to build that base of customers. And when I got like the first three customers that weren't from Argentina, I was like, I had to do like the best work of my life and then the referrals came. So that was like a, a huge ball that went perfectly smooth and naturally.

Dianne: I love that. So Instagram is successful, It worked for you. You were able to get customers from outside of Argentina by using Instagram as your Yeah. Like portfolio essentially?

Mica: Yeah, I started with Instagram, then I did my own website, but Instagram is where most of my clients came from. That's

Dianne: Amazing.

Mica: Yeah. And I think this is not the regular thing, I don't think like Instagram works for everybody. What I think works is that once you get those leads, what are you gonna do to like capture them, right? What are you gonna do to like provide the best services to show them that it's you and not the other thousands and thousands of accounts that they see on a regular basis.

Dianne: So what did you do? What was your secret? What was your secret sauce?

Mica: I don't know. I think that the best secret or sauce or anything is just to be yourself and like show the added value you can give. It, it came from the, the lane night thinking of my process. And what one of my questions for me, for myself was what is the added value I'm gonna give to this customers? Why are they choosing me and not other people? And I think I told you this when I interview for tp, but one of my customers came, came to to my birthday and, and I went to their weddings. So it was like, it was, I was building huge connections with people from other countries and from this country, but especially from other countries trying to bond teams together, working with, with, with great people that then recommended me to, to other people I worked with a copywriter for from the US that turned then, then that then recommended me to one of their customers. So it's like all Yeah. Yes. The network and

Dianne: Yes. And I guess what's important to note there, I love that story, is like, it kind of back to what we said is it, it just starts with one, right? Like, it feels overwhelming. It's like, Oh, you were successful, you went on Instagram, you got all these customers, but it started with going on Instagram, it started with one post and it started with one comment, right? So like, I think that's a lesson to everyone out there is like, you gotta start somewhere and it evolves over time and those late nights and those questions you asked yourself and slowly over time compound compounding, it leads to success or, or failure. And that's fine too. Yeah. Because you learned and you put everything you had into it.

Mica: I had failures obviously there, I had, I, I hate to say this, but I had had more than one client, like not paying me or like just, banishing out of thin air. And that is then I started with like restructuring my process. Okay. 50% advance payment. Okay, I'm sending you an invoice. Okay, I'm sending you a contract. Okay. Like it's really nice to like go all in to learn from your failures and, and mistakes and then like become better, right? Because you can't, you can be great at, at everything. Nobody knows everything. Just surround yourself with people that know better than you and, and I love that. Do things great and take the little things you, you like from everybody and just do your own thing.

Dianne: I love that. Yeah. It's like, make it yours and make it your process and yeah. Learn from your mistakes. I think that's like a key. I know that's a key pillar at the design project too, and I know we align a lot on a lot of our values, but yes, always be learning and growing. Like you wouldn't have asked for 50% deposit or maybe you wouldn't have upped your prices. That there's so many things that cascaded from that those customers not paying you. Right. That like set you up for success further down the line.

Mica: Yeah, exactly.

Dianne: I love that. So let's, let's talk about next. So what happened after like, so branding agency going well, getting new customers, what's next?

Mica: What's next? Is TP No, I was like, I, it was, I was, I was saying it was great, but at one time I, two things happened to me. One was that I wanted to get, I had the UI skills, I had the design skills, website, applications, everything. But as I was learning, I wanted to become like a UX prop or something. Like I wanted to give that more importance into my design career. And the other thing that happened is, as I was telling you, freelancing can be kind of like lonely. So I, I wanted that feedback. Feedback, right? I wanted that, like asking questions and having a teammate, having a group. I kind of missed that. So I was like, okay, let's, let's see another thing and let's search for another thing. And TDP appeared in my life, really. It was awesome.

Dianne: I love that. I love that. Yeah. I think like, what I wanna ask you about this is like, you built something, you built something great. And how was that transition of recognizing that you wanted more and you wanted something different? So like how could you kind of, I guess, make those, that decision to like leave what you've built and that's your baby to pursue something that you think is gonna push you in a growth trajectory?

Mica: Yeah, I think that was the most difficult decision I made. Because the studio was going great. I had great clients. The money was, was great. The connections were great, the referrals were, were great, but it's not like it's, it is, it's just the difference between the ego. Like, this is mine, it's going great, I have to keep this, and what if I want more? What if I, or I don't know if more something different, Is it that bad to ask for something different? We are changing, I'm changing every time, but humans are changing like all the time. We don't just become like the same person and that's it. We change over time. We have different yeah. Aspirations and everything. So I was like, it's not bad to want different things. Let's do this. And if you don't like it, you can always come back because you have like your clients and everything. But yeah, it's, it's really working now. So I don't know if I want to come back. Let's see.

Dianne: Well, no, I, I love what you said about ego is like, and you know, I feel this too, like the design project I feel like is my baby, and I'm like, like I feel like I, I I'm learning from you right now is like, hey, like what is next for me personally and what does that look like with the design project or not? That's not a spoiler. I'm saying the design brush, I'm very happy. But I think that's something to keep in mind is as you're like building something great, you're always striving for great for what great means to you, but also knowing that there is another future and to let go of that ego and pick the decision that makes the most for you. So I think that's something that should, that is gonna stick with me in the future as well. So I appreciate that little, that little nugget.

Mica: Yeah, and I think that a lot of designers struggle with ego just because like, like you were saying, like maybe, I don't know, you have like your own baby, your your own design projects or whatever, and you're like, I want to do everything. Let's like supervise designers, let's manage this. Let's design this and you have to like let go of some things and just know that you can like leave things to other people and it would be okay.

Dianne: Yes. That's been a very hard learning for me. For sure. You like basically hit the nail on the head, the

Mica: Head on the, because I can relate

Dianne: Yes.

Mica: It's

Dianne: Definitely like, this is how it's done, This is my baby, I know this works. Versus opening up and hearing what other people think and realizing that everyone has really great ideas and by letting go TP is gonna get grow and get better and get more ideas and be successful without me feeling like I have to have my reigns on it. Like I feel like TDP is like this entity, like it's gonna do what it's gonna do and I feel like I've grown it up to this point, or I guess a little before this point. And now we have such an amazing team that's being able to take over and run with it. And like, I'm really excited to see what happens with everything you're helping with and the all of the designers. So I do feel like it, it's my baby, but I also am letting it grow up and giving it the space to grow, which has been extremely hard.

Mica:cutting the

Dianne: Wings a lot.

Mica: Yes.

Dianne: But

Mica: Yes, yes, I can totally relate to that.

Dianne: Yes. I love that. I I know you can, so I appreciate that, I appreciate that. Well, awesome. So I guess like the last question I have for you is like, where do you see yourself in five years? Like, do you have an idea of where your career is gonna take you or where you think it could take you?

Mica: Well as aspirations go, maybe I would love to like maybe manage a team or something like that. But really as I was saying, like I, people change a lot, so I just wanna be happy with what I'm doing. I just wanna be learning and being happy and, and really like waking up every day and saying like, yeah, I love my work and I want to keep doing this because it makes me happy. So

Dianne: I love that life is too short to not wake up every day enjoying what you do.

Mica: Yeah. Couldn't agree more.

Dianne: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Awesome. Well thank you so much Mica for this conversation. I feel like we touched on some really interesting topics. I think a lot of like the freelancing and then starting your own business and like leading to growth and ego and all of in between. So I really, really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for being here. And I'll see you tomorrow on Zoom,

Mica: Yes, Yes. Thank you so much for this. I really enjoyed it too.

Dianne: Awesome. Thanks Mica. We'll chat soon.

Mica: Okay, thanks.

Dianne Eberhardt

Dianne Eberhardt

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