#10 - Delfina Bertolotti - Learning To Say No, the Importance of Feedback, and the Journey to Become a Senior Designer

29 min read • Dianne Eberhardt

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,  Stitcher, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

Delfina Bertolotti is from Argentina and she is a Mid-Level designer at TDP. Her career started in one of the most prestigious newspapers in her country and now she is building her career up to becoming a Senior Designer.

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Dianne: Hello, welcome to the Pixelated Perfect Podcast. I'm super excited to have Delfina on our podcast today. Delfi is one of the designers at TDP. She's bent, you've been at TDP for about three months now, right? I think a little bit more like five more April, so I'm so excited to have Delfina called Delfi. Since joining has been such an amazing addition to the team and I'm super excited to not only talk about Delfi your past and where you came from, but also, like, all of the cool things that you've been doing at the design project. And so yeah, thank you so much for being here.

Delfi: No, thank you. And it's an honor to be part of that pixelated, perfect podcast. And of course, being part of the TDP. So thank you for having me. Of course, of course. So I'm excited.

Dianne: So so let's kind of jump into you telling your story of getting started and design all the way up to kind of where you are today.

Delfi: Sure. So I think that I have to go back to my school years like high school years. Like when I finish high school or like the last years in high school, I knew I wanted a creative career Like I had these advertisement project in the last year of school and it was like, I want to like I want something like that in my life in my career path. Also I wasn't like really good at. I don't know creative stuff like I know handcraft and thoughts that type of things. So I decided that I wanted that like a created path. So I entered the graphic design career here in the University of Buenos Aires, which is like the most traditional graphic design career that you could be on here in the country. And when I say traditional, so I say like like up outdated, like out of date in some sense because we were doing like this all these manual things, and it was like more focused on traditional things and not like so much on the digital design. So the first years at University were like, really intense because it was like a lot of all over time spent on on classes like I would go like the whole day to our class and also like them the teachers. They are were really demanding in a good way because you end up like learning a lot but it was like, really, really demanding. It was like a full time job. But then, like the last years of University, I decided I wanted like a real world experience before graduating because I kind of anticipated that if I didn't had that Real World experience when I finished, like when I actually graduated, that will be like difficult for me to get a full-time job that I wanted. So I entered actually I applied for this apprenticeship program in a newspaper here. It's a national newspaper. One of the biggest ones here in in the country and I entered a are I applied? I had like a lot of interviews and after two months of of the job search, I finally entered and it was awesome. Like I was really excited about it. I had these amazing team of not only designers but also like I had this mentor. Or that I really look up to. I have also another co-worker like and she ended up being like my friend but it she was the person who I brainstormed like brainstorm things with. Like at the same level, we were like great colleagues. And also there was this part of the team that were developers and also a journalist, of course, because it was a newspaper. So I will stop there in case you have like any questions because It's being too long now.

Dianne: Yeah yeah so um I think that's interesting that you said like talking about University and how graphic design there were some aspects of it that were out of date. This is like maybe some more digital experiences and and that was my experience too and I think that I guess. My question is, is that also kind of why you sought out an internship and real-world experiences? Like you knew you wanted to be more in the digital space and maybe you weren't getting that.

Delfi: Honestly at that time. I didn't think of that. I think that. Yeah, that idea came up after the apprenticeship actually. Like I think I just yeah, I learned more about I think actually like the apprenticeship program was First approach to ux design and I like I didn't even realize that at that time because I was doing like, database, what is Asian with these like interactive infographics? I need, I nowadays, I think like it has to do a lot with ux design. Like I was designing experiences for people but I didn't even know it at that at that time. Like I thought I was just like this. designing infographics or data, you know, and it was more a lot. Like it was more than that and right.

Dianne: I mean, yeah, like I think data visualization is huge part of like UI ux design but what? Tell us more about the internship and like what you did with data visualization, because I know I saw some examples of your, some of the work you did when you interviewed at TDP. What did that look like for you? What was like your day today? Well, what kind of projects did you get to work on?

Delfi: It was really exciting and it was really challenging because I was this like, students and I would say, like, Junior designer and I was being part of this big projects that had a lot of disability because there was there were like posted in this newspaper. So my day, a typical day there it would be like I I got together with the team. Maybe like some news came up, maybe it would be, it would be a breaking news. But also you could be some project that it's like more of a long-term project and I don't know, maybe a special news has special article that they wanted like a special infographics for and I gather not only with my life. My mentor that was with my boss but also like we journalists from that specific area, for instance, I don't know. It could be politics. So it was like really really interesting because like I think I was doing this, the thing that I liked that was designing but also like it had a lot of impact on on people like and then I do my friends would tell me. Hey, I saw this will the newspaper and I saw your name on it so it had like a lot of visibility.

Dianne: So it was really awesome at the time. Yeah, that's I mean that I'm sure it felt so good to like, yeah, work and knowing that it's not like you were just like, I think. I think like graphic design, there's kind of like, it's like making things pretty and some ways. And I think, like, some of the work that you were doing and design. It was making an impact on how people could gather that information or understand these great. This breaking news and it was like really impactful for the whole country, more than just like, oh, making something look good. It was like, there was so much more to it.

Delfi: Yes. And I have to say, that my mentor at that time, like really bushed mean understanding that because maybe I got that from from him and not from not so much from University like from from the graphic design career. That, of course, it gave me a lot of things and a lot of knowledge that nowadays. I noticed that I use like for instance, Basics, things like spacing or how can I make something like more more balanced? Or I know, Those basic stuff. I know it because of the graphic design career. But like having that Mentor that really pushed me in thinking more, I think it was like super super motivating for me at that time.

Dianne: Yeah. Well let's talk more about mentorship. So get you had this Mentor, this person you can lean on and I think also not just when your ship and also you got to work with so many different people. Like you said like journalists developers like so many other people Outside of like traditional design. So what would be your advice for maybe a junior designer starting about working? With other people?

Delfi: I would say like be open to every comment or every feedback that everyone on the team has on your word because that is what it's going to help you grow and take your career like to the next level. Like I think the feedback is super important and if you are not getting it like you should ask for it. And also something that that really happened to me is and maybe at that time at that time in my career known like a little bit more in my career, there was a time that I wasn't getting the, you know, they were opportunities. I wanted. So it there came a time that I asked for like I want to be part of the UX area. Like I want to be part of that and they gave me that opportunity, but the thing is like the opportunities won't come alone, like, you have to go for them. So that is one of my my advice for, for a junior designer.

Dianne: I love that so much both of your points like always ask for feedback and ask for what you want. Yes, totally and, you know, I know since you've joined TDP, is, like you've been involved in so many things and it was like, you coming and saying, hey, I'm interested in this and that's like a trait of yours that I think is amazing and I value. And I definitely highly suggest everyone if like they're interested in, They don't wait for it to come to you like to get out there and and ask for it, for sure. I think that's great. And yeah you live by that I can can definitely watch for you. You doing that?.

Delfi: Yes, on something that he's like, is happening me. Like we're honestly, is that maybe I am at this mid-level in my career where I maybe you don't have like as a junior, the visibility of what do you want? So you don't know what to ask for, but maybe you don't have to think, like so ahead of time maybe it's like small steps that would take you to tomorrow to where you want. You know. It's not about making a huge step at once. But it's like making small steps towards what you want. I don't know if that makes sense.

Dianne: Yeah. No, no. I think it does make sense. I think it's like it's like don't sit there and think about all the things you could do or don't think about, oh, maybe this isn't the best decision like Just do it. If it makes sense for you in the moment. Like there's nothing like there's nothing wrong. Like you're either going to learn something good or bad, like you're either going to do while you're going to fail and no matter what you're going to learn something. So you should always just like, put yourself out there. Yes, yes. Yes. I think that's great advice to think a lot of people getting their head new like, oh, what if this isn't the right track or what if this doesn't make sense for the long term and it's like, you don't have to know what's going to happen and if you ever yes, the future is always the future there. It's always the unknown.

Delfi: Yes. Yes. And I don't know maybe now like today. You think you want one thing and maybe tomorrow you change your mind and that's also that's also part of

Dianne: Yeah, I having these experiences and putting yourself out there that will help you understand like what you want and what you don't want. Exactly, I yes, I love that. I think that's very, very true. Well, yeah, so that was great. I love talking about your internship. I think that's really, really interesting space to be in, kind of infographics and and all of that. So let's kind of go from there. So what happened next? Where did you go after your internship?

Delfi: Okay, so then that like I was in this newspaper like around two years. So the apprenticeship like took a little like I was part of this 36 months contract and then they extended me a little bit more but it came a time that I decided that I wanted like another experience because I was like, I was young and I wanted like to try and test another thing. So an opportunity came up and someone in like from Human Resources, like, chatted, me thrilling, Killeen LinkedIn and and it was from this consultant, huge Consulting. Company and like a huge corporation that had International customers. And well, I had this interview with them and I finally got in and the, the job role was multimedia designer. So by multimedia, it was like you will do like a little bit of everything. So I was doing like branding animated videos and landings everything honestly but it like it was really customer-oriented. So now that I am like going through my story like my job story. I'm noticing that from every experience I like I learned something, maybe like this one. It wasn't so designed for focused but it was like a lot of facing and customer oriented to be honest. So there are because it was like, in a Consulting environment it was all about the client being happy. So if they want in an animated video, I would do it. Like I didn't know how, but I would do it. So yeah, I worked like they're in like, with a communication specialist, but also, with a project manager and me as a designer and we will do these communication campaigns for different customers that were abroad. So that also was my first experience being from Argentina like to work with people like from another place. So that was a good experience for me to help .

Dianne: Questions about going from working During your internship or it was like an internal company and you talked a little bit about customer-oriented versus going into that agency. Like what was the biggest challenge you face? And what was the biggest difference between working Styles?

Delfi: Like, I would say, both are like, what both of them are very bureaucratic and corporate. So if there wasn't so much of a difference, but definitely like In my first experience. In then in the newspaper processes were were not so much and installed like, even though it was this huge newspaper and really recognize and everything it was like super, super weird. Like they didn't had any processes like you would chat with your teammates like through WhatsApp. I don't know. It was like, super, really? Yeah. Really it was like super nformal even though it was in this big newspaper and here like in the Consulting agency, it was like super, like I think they are also, it gave me the skill of knowing how to work professionally.

Dianne: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a huge skill to have and I think like the only way to really learn that skill is to is to get into working at a company. Like a, don't think you could learn that through school or anything like that. I think like, just, it's like those soft skills. Like, how to communicate with people, how to, like below processes and timelines. And, and all of that is Very much that professional side of it.

Delfi: Yes. I think like, yeah, luckily. Like at that time, I wasn't so happy with that experience because it wasn't so designed for use as it was, the newspaper, for instance. So I wanted something like more designed for use, but nowadays that I see it like with do it. Otherwise, I would say that, it helped me a lot in being more professional. Yeah. In being more professional and developing, these soft skills that you mention.

Dianne: Yeah, and I mean, I think that's something that you bring to the team is like, you have process, you help us build processes. But you also have this like customer-facing, like way about how you present yourself, and how you manage things. And I think that that's also What makes a good designer is like, you can't just be design-oriented as you also. Especially I mean I think it depends on where you work but especially in something like an agency. It's so important to have those customers skills.

Delfi: Yes, yes, yes. I need to something that I learned. It's not something that I as I said, like, I didn't I didn't came with that. Like, it was something that you acquire through time and experience.

Dianne: Yes. Yes. What would you say is the most challenging soft skill to master?

Delfi: I would say saying no, like, negotiating, maybe or yes, communicating to the customer. Like maybe the decision, they are making. It is not the most. I don't know. The most suggested one. I don't know how to say it. But yes. Basically taking the mail today. Yeah. Yes, like I mean I think that's always one of the hardest things. And and yeah, like I want to dive into the sea writing. That's really interesting. So like now as you've maybe mastered your skills a little bit more, like how do you approach a customer and how do you tell them? No, or how do you like like what would be that reasoning and how would you do that? So like now Days why they tried to do is maybe not saying no like and I think this is something I that I learned from you, a lot. Like it is not saying no, but like no, but or maybe we know, we could do this but maybe later or we could expand the scope or like, always finding a way to pitch it in a better way like that? No. But yeah, I would say that like, or maybe providing some proposals may be like, hey, now I kind of do this because I'm focused on this other thing, like always, like showing that you are proactive and that you're still working with them and you're working on, on their product. But yes, maybe like, there's there is not the priority right now. I don't know.

Dianne: Great. Yeah, I don't know. I agree. And I definitely thought something that I believe. And I think it's like it's like if you come from a place of wanting to do what's best for the customer and you're telling them. No, we're suggesting something else because you have their best interest and you communicate it, that way, which really is why we say no is because the customer is not going to get the best designs because they're asking for too fast, or they want to do something that just doesn't make sense for their users. And so we really are using ux principles to say, hey, we suggest something else because that's not what's going to be best for everyone? Yes, you're not going to see those business results that your Looking for, if you do it this way. So yes, what if we suggest this way, you said, have you so much better? Yeah, no, no. I mean, you know, you said a great, have you ever had an experience where I feel like? There's like an interview question, didn't run experience, where it didn't go, well like saying no?

Delfi: How could it be? Like it didn't go? Well, like maybe they got some like, didn't like your idea? And they were like, no, no, no. I want to go with my original suggestion or something. Yes, I'm thinking of one now and now it came up one. And yes, I mean I was like, maybe proposing one way, going one way. And the customer like really wanted. Go these other way, even though, like, we were making like, proposals, and we were, like, showing them in what ways. This could be more beneficial for instance. But what ended up happening was that like, the customer has the last word to be honest. So if they want to if they want to go one way, of course we can make it. But yeah. Always like providing best principles and, you know, best practices and and that stuff. But yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it doesn't always work out. Yeah.

Dianne: It's I think it's a good example, but at least it's like you tried and you have like, you weren't afraid to speak your mind. I didn't say what you wanted, which kind of goes back to your original idea of like, always push for what you want. Like that's the best thing you can do. Okay. So we're at this point where you're at this consulting company working with pretty large International customers. You you like in hindsight the customer experience you got, but you were kind of lacking in design. You wanted more design. So what's next? What happened after that?

Delfi: Yes, so after that I decided that I wanted to like, updated update, my resume my portfolio with these new experiences and started for job searching and these other opportunity in an advertisement agency came up, and I had these interviews and I enter there and that was like my first ux project. like and that was like the time where I said, like, hey, I know that you have this area of ux design. I wasn't entering for ux like the ux area, but I, as I was telling you, like, I asked for that opportunity. I said like, hey, I know that I'm entering with another job title but later, I would love to be part of the UX area because that is where I see myself in. So a couple of months passed. And I know it was one or two months and a project of a website redesign and came up there and they told me, hey, Delfi. Do you want to be part of it? And I say, of course. Yes, that that was like the opportunity. I was waiting for and so I started working for this. Also this it was like a customer that they had in this advertisement engine. See it was this big customer. And I basically I did like the first approach to ux which was like all the ux process, like architecture information. Wireframing like it was the first time I got to do that in a professional experience. And also I was working with these lead designer lead, ux designer and I would say I mid-level product designer and me as a junior. So yeah, I was able like to propose ideas to be part of this team and to learn how to to face our ux process. So it was like really motivating and challenging for me at that time. And yeah I think that that was like my experience and at that agency and then I got into a new like after I would say I'm not a year. I got into Back to the newspaper where I started. But now I was in another area like in a magazine and I was like the only designer like in charge of the launching of their website. So I like I've been hiding from this junior more mid level designer in this ux area in the agency and then I want like to beaming in charge of the website of the up the website of this magazine. Of course, I have like an art director, but she didn't have any knowledge on like web design. So that was like, a big challenge for me, and it was like, pretty awesome to be part of and nowadays, it is live, so I am. Yeah, I'm like, I was part of that. So, that's, that's awesome.

Dianne: Yeah, that's you. Fixing to yeah. You basically so question about when you kind of started in ux, kind of moving from like, hey I want this opportunity getting this opportunity. How did you learn the ux/ui process? Like did you learn that from school or just from educating yourself or was it from them actually aim?

Delfi: It was, I would say it was mostly from the team but also A lot of like self-learning like I didn't even know what an information architecture was when when they told me that word but I learned a lot by the practice also like by experiencing it. And I think that it was like a really safe place for me to to learn which was great because I had this other people above me. Like I had this Product designer. And then like the lead designer and I was like making maybe small things more in the production, but learning a lot. So that is something that I also would say to the junior designers like you, you don't have to start with big projects. Maybe you are doing the small things but in the meantime, you're learning like the big things that you need to to learn.

Dianne: Yeah, no, that's great. And like so, how did I go from you learning under people being a junior Designer work your way up and then going to taking a position as pretty much the sole designer like, yeah. How did that feel? What was that experience?

Delfi: Like yes. And it definitely felt at that time like and I think you mentioned it in your episode in your podcast but the Imposter syndrome like definitely and maybe I was a little bit impostor because maybe I did need it and like someone maybe that I could work with. And of course, I had a side was telling you this art director that I really looked up to her, but she she didn't had a lot of experience in digital design so I was the one that I did that. I knew how so. Yeah, definitely. They are at that time it was a lot of self learning and and because I didn't had any one and also like asking colleagues outside of of my Like awful of my work, but yes, it was pretty challenging but it happened.

Dianne: Well, yes, exactly. And I was going to say so like it was challenging and then you're rewarded with this project that you worked on the turned out. Amazing. And it's out in the real world. And yes. How does that feel? Like all of maybe the pressure and the learning and all of that and to get to that final end result.

Delfi: Yes it is really rewarding and yeah like to see. Also your process like you being from these Junior designer and now you have this big opportunity and you take it and now your product is live. So yeah I think like that is something really rewarding of Designing General.

Dianne: Yes, like being able to see what you've done out there in the world and users using it. And that's yes. And yeah, you've had that quite a few times in your career like working at the newspaper and having your name under all of these cool infographics and working in big companies at the agency. So yeah, I think that's great. What would you what would you say to a designer that is looking to, to make the leap of like Maybe they're more junior or mid-level at a company going from having other team members to maybe being a soul. A soul designer, like would you encourage that would? What level would someone need to be to feel confident and, and taking on that role on their own?

Delfi: Like honestly, I think that it's always good to have someone. You can look up to like I don't see myself in Maybe not now or not in a near future. Like I don't see myself in anywhere where I kind of look up to someone. Maybe it is not like maybe this not design related, maybe you learn other skills. Like, it doesn't have to be designed, but at least me, like, where I am now. I want to look up to someone because of the design skills because I feel that I still have a lot to work on. So I need that. And so I think each it is mostly about recognize your pain point or recognize what you are lacking and go to that job experience. That can fill that Gap, you know, way?

Dianne: I like that. Yeah. I also liked what you said about like it's not, doesn't it feel like to be designed like maybe? Yeah. Do you do take on a position that is, you're the sole designer, but you're learning skills from other people on the team. That We'll help you in your future and so yeah I exactly like well or maybe you are at these seniors super senior level in your career and you you need like to learn other things or you want to learn other things and yeah yeah yeah I think that's great advice. I think that's good advice for people kind of making a jump in. Like I will say one thing about the design project here to stick that into something that was really important to me. When Like starting the design project is. I wanted designers to have other designers to get feedback from because I think that's really important. I think you can get like we mentioned earlier. We get feedback from a lot of people which is always useful. Feedback is always amazing but I think like being able to present your designs and people that might have other ideas or have done something similar in the product design space is kind of always pushing you to grow your design skills. And I think that's like really powerful to have other designers, Yes, around you definitely, I love that about TDP really. Yeah, I mean, that's like super where I love it too. I love going into our design reviews and just like, seeing what people are doing and thinking about maybe other things, they hadn't thought of and getting feedback on my designs and saying, hey I've been in the weeds here, like I'm stuck. What do you guys think? Yes, seeing whatever knows how they think. That's like really a really powerful tool to use like other designers.

Delfi: Yes, and personally, something that I like I always do and recently, I did it with you. Like, hey, if you could review these like, I mean, it's because I need like thoughts on this. And I think that's the best way to yeah, to, like, to move forward and to challenge yourself, like, asking for your feedback and opinions.

Dianne: Yeah, totally. I think that's a great way to also just like expand in an industry that maybe you're not familiar with. So like you're working on a project and maybe you haven't worked on this feature before but maybe another designer whether they're on your team or not you can reach out to them and they could give you ideas of things that you haven't thought of. Because you don't know what you don't know and you always should be learning.

Delfi: Yes, I know something that that happens to me at least is maybe I'm like so much focused on on something that I miss the big picture, sometimes and only maybe something from outside. Can can point out that to me? Like I think that is a really powerful. Yes.

Dianne: Yeah. I think that just happened in our design of the other day with one of our Iron 2 is working on something. And you ask the question, like, how are they getting to this screen? Where is this coming from? And like, he was like, oh actually, it's a really good question. I'm not sure why I was answering it, like, completely changed. He's like, oh my gosh, that unlocks like then, obviously, this is the direction that we should go because it makes sense based on where they're coming from and me thinking and opening it up. So I think that yeah, an example. Exactly what you just said.

Delfi: Yes. Yes. I think it's a matter of not being polluted with I like the the product that you're working on so much and having that fresh ideas, that maybe it can be like, they can being from a junior more Junior designer. Like it doesn't it doesn't have to do with seniority.

Dianne: I feel that's a really good point. I'm really glad you said that because that's so true. Like any designers input is powerful like me ideas, like brainstorming ideas. Comes from anyone and everyone like, it doesn't matter that like I'm your manager are in your amid to you, it doesn't matter. It's like ideas are ideas and they can come from anywhere and a junior can come in. And like hierarchy means nothing. It's just about like being able to explore Express and keeping that open dialogue. Okay, so let's keep going. So you're back at the newspaper taking on A project kind of on your own in the digital space with an art director.

Delfi: Yes. And then Dianne and Alex appear in my life. And I was like, I was three months at the newspaper again. And I heard from well, from a ferret friend of mine, that works with well another agency, but he told me, hey, in TDP. They are looking for a designer like would you like to hear from them? And I told yes like I always honestly I always say yes because I want to be open and here and then if I want to say no then I say no. But really I had this interview, this first interview with you and I research a little bit of the agency and it really like motivate me to be part of it. Like before entering the newspaper again for the second time I had was having this conversation with my mom where I told her like he was she was asking me. What is your next step in your career? And like we were talking about this like my professional life and I told her like definitely working for and earn a broad agency. Like I would love to work like outside of Argentina like Working with other people from different countries and ux related. So I definitely like visualize that. I think like breaks that sounds exactly. Yes wouldn't be reversed you really really? So yeah I really be highlighted and well I have these interviews with you and then after a couple of days I would say it was like really quickly. I entered TDP as a product designer and like my goal. I TDP. I think it was at like to learn in a ux like learned ux In like because I was learning, ux more intuitively. So, this was my first experience on product design. So yeah, I would say my goal was like to to and say be better in the technical side, right? And also it was my first experience in a start-up like in the startup world and I wanted to try this new thing. As I came up, like I came from this corporate and big companies and it was the first time that it was like a smaller agency that I had really contact with the founders of the agency so that was like a really motivating and interesting for me. And now I could say that it is the one of the things that I mostly value about TDP is like being able not only to learn ux and this need I didn't expect it to be on it like when I entered but also like proposing ideas proposing, like being part of the processes. Being part of a lot of things that are not only design related.

Dianne: Like you coming into TDP with your more corporate experience and getting that startup experience and like I think that's very much a start-up mentality is like you come in and you were a bunch of hats. Like there's smaller teams, there's so many things. We're trying to do. There's like we always just want to keep moving. Keep moving. Keep moving do more do more, do more? And I think you kind of came in and we're like, I'm down, let's do it. Whatever you guys want? Like, let's see what happens. And so I That I think it's very much throughout all of this. There's like this side of you, that's always like, yes, to Opportunities. Like say yes, let's see what happens. Let's push for what I want and I definitely think that that makes it you. Such a great fit for TDP and the kind of that startup world is like you move quickly and you're just open and just want to do whatever. So what question I have for you is like what do you think? Are the biggest differences from coming from that more traditional world to the startup world?

Delfi: I would say like, definitely, like in the startup World things happen, things happen like more quickly and I think that in a corporate environment, if you, maybe if you propose something, I won't say like they don't hear you because that would be a light bud. And like things take long because there are a lot of people involved and a lot of. Yeah, lot of layers. You have break. In a start-up word like everyone is like so committed. I think to the growth of of the startup that that everything like you make everything happen quicker. I would say like people I feel that people are more energetic in a start-up and I could see that I can see that in myself like like I wanted it be to grow. Because also, it will mean that I will grow. So it's like yeah, yeah. It's I think that that sums up.

Dianne: Yeah. It's kind of like it's like so small. It's like we're a family and it's like every success is everyone's success since the company's success, and it's our customer success. And we talked a lot about TDP and like internal, but like we work with startups. So a lot of these, a lot of, like, all of your customers is like your Iterating and building designs really quickly and it's like our customers are like. Hey, let's do something. Let's put it out there. Yes, let's see what happens. Let's come back. So it's like very much. Also, how you interact with your customers, that's true.

Delfi: Yeah, totally. Yes, maybe like I used to think of the of my process like. Okay, I need to like I propose this. I need to work on this a little bit more. Like things were happening like you know, In another Rhythm and now like like I was trying to end every single detail before it came out like for instance, in my previous experiences and now it's more like a construction and I'm iterative way. So yeah, I'm learning a lot from that also.

Dianne: Yeah I like how you said that. I think that's very true and I think so one, one of the last things I do want to talk about our NPS scores. So you're everyone that doesn't know what NPS scores are. It's based, I actually think I talked about this one improve in a previous podcast as well, but NPS scores are basically the standard of getting feedback from people. So it's usually the question is, like, would you recommend us to a friend, like company sent out this questionnaire? I'm sure everyone's gotten that and it's something we do monthly and it's how we keep track of our work and our customer happiness and in. So, it's a metric that we A lot at TDP. That's just a great way for us to measure. And like, since Delphia started, all of her customers have given her a 10 and for everyone to know, getting a 10 on an NPS scores like impossible, like, it's like insane. So I think that that speaks to a lot of like, your past and customer oriented. And yes and friendly and just like everything that brings together, all of your skills and your design skills, and your ability to learn and grow and just like go with the flow. I think, is what makes you such an awesome designer. Not just your design skills, but everything else. And we can actually measure that, which is something that a lot of people are like, what's the value of ux design? Will be, are measuring that and we're seeing that our customers are getting value out of it. And in turn we're getting value and metrics out of that too. So I don't know if you have anything else to add but I just had to talk a little bit about NPS scores.

Delfi: I think that it's great. It's another way of getting feedback like from the customer. So that's great and apart from like getting that number that. In this case, it's a 10 but it could be another but it's like it's good that we have these questions that the customer feels scene and me as the designer and responsible, I try to enter and see what the customer has to say, because maybe it's a 10, but maybe he put a comment about something so I would say it's like, don't get satisfied with that 10 like I know always like try to to, I don't know, to see what you could do better or how can you keep growing.

Dianne: Yes. Thank you for saying that. I feel like Alex are co-founders in my head. It's like numbers. Not like he's like tens means everything's great. But yes, very good point. It's like yes. The number is satisfying but also seeing how else we can continue to grow and how you can push yourself to grow with our customers is super, super important. So yes, thank you. No, that's the real reason is to make our customers happy. Very customer oriented so well, yeah. So Delfi, kind of ending is like, what's next? Where do you see yourself in a year? Where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you want your design career to go?

Delfi: So I would say as I was telling you I think that I am at this point in my career that I mean a mid-level and I am trying out like different things like TDP has helped me a lot with that like Being a TDP could test being, like, leading people, like a contest being, like, in charge of a whole redesign, the website redesign. So I got to where I different hats. And that's been great for me to grow and learn and also to understand what is it that I want. As I was telling, like, in the first minutes of this episode, but I think my next step would be, I would love to like really make focus on my technical side and really, really feel confident about that like being able to enter pigma and knowing that is my safe place like nowadays. I really enjoyed but I feel that maybe having that amount of confidence that I don't know if I will ever have that amount that I'm looking for. But yeah, I would say that like focusing on my technique outside for being that like senior designer and then eventually one day, maybe like I know, being a head of design or something but yeah.

Dianne: I know that and you know like I don't know if anyone can become a fig Baxter because figma because constantly changing and putting out new amazing features. So I feel like there's always going to be said of learning, which is also kind of exciting. As much as one can be an expert in figma. I think it's a good goal for sure. Well, awesome Delfi, thank you so much for taking the time and chatting about your background, where you came from. I think we got some really good nuggets of like tips and tricks and things that you suggest, for junior designers, and designers honestly of all levels to like up their design game, and be better, and push themselves. And so So yes, I hope that listeners might follow in your footsteps and push themselves to do something. Maybe they are scared of or that they're not confident in, but just to try it out. So yes, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

Delfi: No, thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great.

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